front mounted oil coolers?

[Jim Ratto]

how popular in Europe is it to mount engine oil cooler up in front of car? Seems there is some room up near beam, but are guys running AN10 oil lines? Which pump?
Any advantages?

Just thinking

[Bewitched666]

You see that every now and then but most people dont have the oilcooler upfront.

I know alot of germanlook cars have the oilcooler upfront.My car is to low in the front to have an oilcooler there and to many bumps here in holland,haha

[j-f]

A popular mount is to put it on the rear, like the system cagero do.
Front mounted are more for german looker.

[Torben Alstrup]

The Cagero is very nice. But it just dont cut it on a big cc sustained high speed type 1. I have used a couple of them in conjunction with the stock super Beetle cooler in the fan housing. Then I have uesd them over a thermostat and that is fine and can take care of a lot power then.
My favourite is still a front mounted cooler. I use a 530 mm. cooler from a Mercedes mini truck. Mounted up in front of the beam, and with an air foil in front of it to pick up air and force it through the cooler. Works very well.

WRT line size. I´m not sure of the AN size, but you need at least ½" I.D. on the hose, anmd the narrowest point in the fittings must be no less than 9,5 mm.
T

[Udo]

In Europe most people mount their oil coolers in the front  with original or 30 mm pump and 13 mm inside diameter oil lines . I think it is An 10 !? For me Setrap coolers are the best , you can get these in different sizes .

Udo

[Jim Ratto]

I've run my Setrab for 10 years now, and it is far superior in cooling and construction over the Mesas. I just wonder if it gets enough cool air through it where I have it situated. It sits longitudinally to the left of transaxle, hung about 1.5" down from underside of luggage floor. Fan motors hang below cooler. I am considering making some type of air funnel to feed cooler from down around LH torsion tube.
A friend of mine in the 1990's ran some type of fin cooler up behind the front grille of his 1974 Super Beetle, with Melling iron pump and 1/2" (AN-8) lines. He drove the crap out of the car and I never saw oil temp go above 180F. It would blow filters off if he didn't let it warm up too. I just wonder if oil lines that lng need to go to AN-10 in place of -8

[Bruce]

Jim, On Sunday, have a look at where Bill mounted his cooler.

[Jason Foster]

Hey Jim,   
   Where do you get Setrab coolers?

[Rennsurfer]

how popular in Europe is it to mount engine oil cooler up in front of car? Seems there is some room up near beam, but are guys running AN10 oil lines? Which pump?
Any advantages?

Just thinking

When I was a mechanic at Purnell's German Car Repair in 1980, the owner's son, Dave, and I built our first Cal Look Bugs at the same time. He chose to build a gigantic 48IDA engine (2.3 liter) and he decided to mount an oil cooler (from an old Benz or other German car) on the front, under the apron. He plumbed it, using copper lines and I forget which oil pump he went with. He got transferred to Arizona a few years back. Amazingly, he still has the car and it's been well taken care of and in storage all of these years. Next time I get out there to visit my sister, I'll try to take some shots of the car. 1971, Porsche India Red, 14" and 15" EMPI 2-piece eight spokes and one fast engine. One of the fastest VWs I've ever been in. He's always been happy with how efficient his oil cooling system performs.

[Jim Ratto]

Hey Jim,   
   Where do you get Setrab coolers?

Mckenzies in Anaheim right dow the street from Roger's shop.

[Roman]

The weird thing about Setrab coolers is that they are cheaper in the US than in sweden, even though they are made in Sweden!

[Lee.C]

All I'm gonna say on this subject is - NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!!!!!!!

it just seems logical to me - why mount it where its going to get hit by road debris - there is also those stupidly long oil lines running the length of the chassis, these could be damaged at ANY time

Above the gearbox always seems like a cool idea - or on the rear air vent just like EMPI had in mind 

[63 ripper]

All I'm gonna say on this subject is - NO NO NO

did they try and make you go to rehab ? 

[Torben Alstrup]

All I'm gonna say on this subject is - NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!!!!!!!

it just seems logical to me - why mount it where its going to get hit by road debris - there is also those stupidly long oil lines running the length of the chassis, these could be damaged at ANY time

Above the gearbox always seems like a cool idea - or on the rear air vent just like EMPI had in mind 

From the sound of your reply, I´m pretty sure that you have never built a hi power engine designed for sustained high speed.

1. Who said anything about not protecting the cooler somewhat
2. Whats so bad about long oil lines ?
3. No one said that you couldnt run the lines inside tha car instead of under it.
4. To install a cooler with or without a fan above the gearbox is about as inefficient as can be. A 12 X 12 atomic cooler installed up there barely averages a 13 row Setrab cooler, front mounted.
T

[Lee.C]

wo wo wo calm down there "Newbie"

I was just putting in my 2 cents - This is just my "opinion"

it just doesn't feel right to me and there is always the fact that its not "Cal Look" 

[Rasser]

I mounted my cooler just below the rear framehorns that carry the gearbox/motor. i mounted a mercedes oilcooler as Torben Alstrup has mentioned. This setup works EXTREMELY well, and on a callooker there are NO clearance-problems, and the cooler can´t be seen unless you know it´s there.

I have used this setup at sustained highway speeds for hours and hours, both with my old 1914-w130-10,8:1C/R engine, and with a stock 1.8L type 4 (upright conversion, only running external oilcooler) engine. Never saw high oiltemperatures with this setup - EVER!

Before changing the oilcooler to the mercedes type mounted under the framehorns, I used to run a little oilcooler with thermostat/cooler mounted above the gearbox. when changing oilcooler I immediately saw highway oiltemps drop about 20 deegrees celcious.

Use a good cooler and mount it where the air is forced through (not above the gearbox!!!)

running 130km/h forces an extremely high airspeed through the cooler, and no electric fan can ever get close to this airspeed!

[Jim Ratto]

just to clarify, my Setrab is not above gearbox, it is positioned next to it, just to the left. I would like to think it gets enough cool air through it, but I think it needs a duct to either duct hot air out of it or duct (only) cold air to fans.

FYI no matter how hot it has gotten outside down here, I have yet to see over 190F even on long freeway drives.

[qubek]

I was just putting in my 2 cents - This is just my "opinion"

it just doesn't feel right to me and there is always the fact that its not "Cal Look" 

Because cal-look cars are not meant to be driven fast for longer periods of time. This is because cal-look was born in US.
There is a reason why cal-look and german look cars are different. Both styles are in general purposeful. The point is that this "purpose" is different. If I want to have a Bug which accelerates fast - I will ask Americans for advice. But if I decide to build a car which is meant to be fast on the (good quality) street (i.e. good top speed and good handling) I would rather follow the European way. I know that this is cal-look forum, but still - I think most of us just like fast Bugs.

 

[Jim Ratto]

I was just putting in my 2 cents - This is just my "opinion"

it just doesn't feel right to me and there is always the fact that its not "Cal Look" 

Because cal-look cars are not meant to be driven fast for longer periods of time. This is because cal-look was born in US.
There is a reason why cal-look and german look cars are different. Both styles are in general purposeful. The point is that this "purpose" is different. If I want to have a Bug which accelerates fast - I will ask Americans for advice. But if I decide to build a car which is meant to be fast on the (good quality) street (i.e. good top speed and good handling) I would rather follow the European way. I know that this is cal-look forum, but still - I think most of us just like fast Bugs.

 

me too

[Zach Gomulka]

I'm not crazy about the idea either, Lee. Seems like a lot more hassle, for little gain.

BTW, if you set up the cooling system properly, I dont think an external cooler is even needed on a type 1. My .02

[Jim Ratto]

I'm not crazy about the idea either, Lee. Seems like a lot more hassle, for little gain.

BTW, if you set up the cooling system properly, I dont think an external cooler is even needed on a type 1. My .02

What else do you think I need to do to my cooling system Zach, aside from OE 040 heads,  factory VW fan housing, cylinder covers, stock VW cooler, stock VW lower tins, jetted and timed correctly? How do you get aorund the increase in heat from higher CR, higher rpm, and more heat generated through dual springs, ratio rockers, etc? How do you suggest I keep my street driven 2165 at an acceptable oil temperature when the ambient temp exceeds 90F? I do drive my car for extended distances and periods of time. 

I wondered about efficiency of my location because of proximity of heat in that same area (headers, transaxle, external filter, sump...) and also looking at where Porsche mounted external coolers on every street and competition rear or mid-engined car since about 1957 or so. SOME of those cars, yes, were dry-sump, I know. I am merely wondering if the off-the-shelf 30mm pumps will be sufficient to run oil to front of car and back again and still provide enough volume and pressure when oil gets warm (180F+). I know some 912 guys are running the 616 engine and have run AN-10 lines to the front fenderwell-located cooler.

[Zach Gomulka]

Off the top of my head...

Vented decklid
Type 4 oil cooler
356/912 gen pulley
Berg crank pulley (newer one, it is slightly larger than stock whereas the standard aftermarket pulleys are slightly smaller than stock)
FI venturi ring on the back of the shroud
Block off radiating exhaust heat from j-tubes (Thing tins, or fab up something similar)
Thermostat
All rubber seals in place and in good shape (both oil cooler exhaust seals and throttle cable conduit seal are usually worn or missing)

I try and make the motor cool itself, and as a last resort install an external cooler. Simpler that way And I agree that the Setrab is FAR superior than any "plate" type oil cooler.

I am merely wondering if the off-the-shelf 30mm pumps will be sufficient to run oil to front of car and back again and still provide enough volume and pressure when oil gets warm (180F+).

That would be a top concern of mine as well.

[Lee.C]

I'm not crazy about the idea either, Lee. Seems like a lot more hassle, for little gain.

BTW, if you set up the cooling system properly, I dont think an external cooler is even needed on a type 1. My .02

Thanks for the "back up" dude 

I also think your right about the stock cooling system - The MAIN reason I fitted one along with a deep sump, 32mm pump and the MASSIVE HP1 was purely for EXTRA OIL CAPASITY after all thats the BEST "cooler" you can have 

[Fasterbrit]

A popular mount is to put it on the rear, like the system cagero do.
Front mounted are more for german looker.

How on earth does this cooler get any air through those tiny little slots? A giant oil cooler is only as good as the cooling medium passing through it and if there is no flow, it just isn't going to cool. Looks like an expensive waste of money to me...
Ditch that ridiculous air scoop and fabricate one that works and that cooler would be a winner.

[Brown-nose]

I'm not crazy about the idea either, Lee. Seems like a lot more hassle, for little gain.

BTW, if you set up the cooling system properly, I dont think an external cooler is even needed on a type 1. My .02

Thanks for the "back up" dude 

I also think your right about the stock cooling system - The MAIN reason I fitted one along with a deep sump, 32mm pump and the MASSIVE HP1 was purely for EXTRA OIL CAPASITY after all thats the BEST "cooler" you can have 

i'm guessing the 32mm pump is a typo ?

[Diederick/DVK]

nope, it's not...

[nicolas]

longer lines do mean more oil. and i think the oilcooler up front right in the colder air will cool better, but i haven't had problems with my setup since the engine runs better. i eliminated most bumps and sharp turns in the system and have sealed the cooling tin better and now my engine ran cool. the pump pushes the oil out to the filter that is mounted on a bracket attachet to the left headstuds and from there runs a line to the oilcooler next to the gearbox. like jim has it. the only thing you have to look for is the way the openings face.
different engines generate different heat. but more oil will keep an engine cooler and a cooler that is wellfed with fresh cold air works better. there is no need for the biggest cooler on a streetengine, but a good working system will keep a better constant temperature.

[Jim Ratto]

longer lines do mean more oil. and i think the oilcooler up front right in the colder air will cool better, but i haven't had problems with my setup since the engine runs better. i eliminated most bumps and sharp turns in the system and have sealed the cooling tin better and now my engine ran cool. the pump pushes the oil out to the filter that is mounted on a bracket attachet to the left headstuds and from there runs a line to the oilcooler next to the gearbox. like jim has it. the only thing you have to look for is the way the openings face.
different engines generate different heat. but more oil will keep an engine cooler and a cooler that is wellfed with fresh cold air works better. there is no need for the biggest cooler on a streetengine, but a good working system will keep a better constant temperature.

I worked at a shop for many years that sold oil coolers to customers that thought bolting a big Mesa cooler directly (i.e. flush) to the underside of the body (above transaxle) was "the way to do it." We also got a lot of tow-in come backs in the summer. I always thought of that big Mesa up there, without any air flowing through it was more of a heat sink type cooler.... only having the ability to radiate heat (but only when ambient temp is relatively cool). I never mounted my Mesa like that, instead, I made a brakcet that allowed me to hang it just below and to the rear of the LH torsion tube, with hose fittings facing rear. At least it was getting exposed to cooler air here. With my low compression 2054 (7.8:1) and 044 Magnum (circa 1990) heads I drove this car up and down various interstates in the San Joaquin Valley during the summer months, going to Southern Calif for parts and VW events. With this setup, the oil temp would only climb above 180f per VDO gauge going south, headed up Grapevine. Even when I increased CR to 8.8:1 (and changed to dual springs, ) the oil temp never exceeded 200F under same travels and same time of year.
However, once I went to 2276cc, with 9.2:1 and Super Flow 1 46 x 38mm heads and Chevy-style springs, the same cooling system no longer served me well. A similar trip on Interstate 5 in August, headed north to Plumas County, brought me oil temps in excess of 220F. Obviously, the less efficient head design and stiffer springs lended to the big jump in temp. This was with same fan, fan housing (Scat 36hp style), decklid prop, pulleys, etc as the smaller engine. I added a second Mesa (48 plate) to the RH torsion bar and finally could cool the engine enough. After I lost the cam in that motor, I was done with such large springs (this was 1992, before we lost good green Kendall) so I swapped to a set of the "black" SCS Competition Eliminator heads (same design as the old Street Elim) 42 x 37, lowered CR, but STILL had to run two Mesas to keep oil under 200F when temp outside got to 90F +. This time with stock VW fan housing (same one that is on my car today), all stock VW sheetmetal, yes, every seal and weatherstrip that was there stock (I worked at a VW shop in the 90's, we could still get all that stuff in Genuine). I was convinced that the heads were the culprit, but at the time, I was stuck with them. A few years later, I found the Setrab dual fan cooler, and decided that the forced air through it (and its construction) would be a much more efficient design than the Mesas, so I bought it and it was a struggle to find space for it up there. Finally fabbed some 4mm thick brackets and tubes with long bolts to fasten it next to gearbox, with fan motors below cooler. With this cooler alone, the temps easily stayed under 200F even with "brick heads", and when I switched to OEM VW heads, the oil temp dropped further (even with higher CR again). My point is, it isn't just which pulley or shroud or etc that you hang on the motor.... it depends on the motor itself, and yes it does depend on the cooler you choose and what kind of air goes through it. Those motors at my old work were not big cc fire-breathers. They were 1776's with Engle 110s and 041 heads but with crappy fan housings and the oil-cooker mounted flush. They'd come in with rods hanging out of cases and  the heads fried gold from heat. "But we bought an oil cooler..." the customers would cry.
Zach, how many 180hp guys in AZ drive their cars on the freeway out there for hours with only a 356 pulley, bus cooler and no external cooler? What oil temps do you see in your big engines set up like you mentioned above after driving on highway in 90F heat?

[Lee.C]

nope, it's not...

Dam right dude  And its an Original Race Trim that came in its box 

[Zach Gomulka]

I agree that the most important part of a cool running engine is the correct combination of parts, I was merely suggesting external upgrades to your motor in particular. On that note, I believe that deck height plays a critical role in cooling as well. Keeping the compression in the AL heads rather than the iron cylinders.

Zach, how many 180hp guys in AZ drive their cars on the freeway out there for hours with only a 356 pulley, bus cooler and no external cooler? What oil temps do you see in your big engines set up like you mentioned above after driving on highway in 90F heat?

How many? How should I know? There isnt many guys here with 180+ hp, and the ones that do are to chicken shit to drive them in the summer!
From my experience I can tell you about my friend/former roomate Travis' engine, which I have mentioned before. 2276cc, FK8, 9:1, Clyde 044's, Berg5. Made 198hp, ran a best of 12.63 on DOT's, and was a true blue daily driver- even in the summer months. When we drove it out to the Classic in '02, it was 117 degrees when we drove through Blythe, the oil temp stayed a steady 100 degrees or less above ambient, driving at 80-85mph (according to AutoMeter). It had many of the tricks I listed above (but not all, and I have learned more since then ), but had a propped decklid (solid, propped at the top to clear the Berg IDA stacks), and NACA ducts in the quarter windows that fed fresh air directly to the carbs and fan- I am sure this made a big difference. A Mesa type cooler (I forget which one, but I dont think it was the big one) was used- it was above and to the left of the trans at an angle, below the package tray- not ideal. I would like to see what sheilding the j-tubes, 040 heads, and bolt on aluminium valve covers (Yes I said that) would do to his cylinder head temps- I bet the difference would be impressive.

I believe that an engine of 180hp, set up properly, driven in sane conditions at highway speed (Southwest desert in the summer is NOT sane!), should have no problem keeping its cool on a 90 degree day. Do everything that you can to the motor itself, then as a last resort, add an external cooler.

Another thing I just remembered, use a System 1 oil filter. It is the last filter you will ever buy, and the housing is constructed of finned aluminium. Pre fit all of your tins before you send them out for powdercoat, or paint. Loosely fitting tin will allow cool air to escape. Ive even seen a small bead of silicone used to make the tins leak free...