front mounted oil coolers?

[Zach Gomulka]

My dad and I are building a mild 1915 for his car that will be driven regularly in Phoenix, when we get going on it I will post up a thread on cooling tricks. Stay tuned

[Torben Alstrup]

A good 26 mm oil pump will send the oil to the front and back again. But I do admit that I like to install a 30 mm oil pump on these cars, and loose a little power on that account. Just to have a little more margin. 32 mm hi volume this and that is not needed.

The type 4 oil cooler in a type 1 fan shroud has very limited effect on reducing temps compared to a stock type 1. Due to the fact that air is limited to 14% of the volume from the fan. Now, IF you run low ratios and at the same time use a larger than stock pulley, like say a 356 one, you will see a slight decrease in temps when the engine is above aprrox. 3000 rpm. Typically about 5 degrees C.  If you run stock gears like a 4,125 transmission and stockish height tyres, you will often see a temperature INCREASE below 3000 rpm and status Quo or close to it above. - I know that at least one reputated vendor recommended it earlier, but that doesnt make it work better.

Also, yes, if youre mostly driving around in the city and hardly ever see sustained freeway speeds, the stock late model cooling system will take care of most engines, PROVIDED that the fan can get air. A pre 67 car with no vented decklid gets to be a handfull pretty soon.

Back when I finetuned my 70 hp 1600 cc. std plus engine. I did it in a car like that. We had cooling problems on the freeway. The head and oil temps just climbed "nice and easy" to unacceptable levels over a 30 - 40 minute period. We then drilled a 3"  hole in the right side of the bell housing cover, and routed a hose from it downside the transmission, about 3/4 way, pointing slightly forwards. We put a piece of "chicken fence" over the mouth to keep leafs and other larger debris away. That mod alone gave us 15 degrees  C. less head temps at sustained 85 mph. Later we cut an almost rectangular hole up under the licence plate light, and let the hole follow the shape of the light house which gave us roughly 75 cm2 of ventilation. (The hole was not visible from the rear unless you ducked down and leveled with the licence plate. That gave us another 5 degrees C. reduction of the head temps.

So yes, as someone said, its best to let the engine cool itself. But at some point it needs help.
T

[Diederick/DVK]

I mounted my cooler just below the rear framehorns that carry the gearbox/motor. i mounted a mercedes oilcooler as Torben Alstrup has mentioned. This setup works EXTREMELY well, and on a callooker there are NO clearance-problems, and the cooler can´t be seen unless you know it´s there.

I think this sound pretty fascinating! Do you have any pics to share Rasser?
I'm also curious as to how you mount the cooler to the framehorns...

As for me, I'm still in doubt what kind of oil cooler to use on my 1915, so I'll definitely follow this thread closely!

[Rasser]

I mounted my cooler just below the rear framehorns that carry the gearbox/motor. i mounted a mercedes oilcooler as Torben Alstrup has mentioned. This setup works EXTREMELY well, and on a callooker there are NO clearance-problems, and the cooler can´t be seen unless you know it´s there.

I think this sound pretty fascinating! Do you have any pics to share Rasser?
I'm also curious as to how you mount the cooler to the framehorns...

As for me, I'm still in doubt what kind of oil cooler to use on my 1915, so I'll definitely follow this thread closely!

Sorry don´t have any pics, but it´s just mounted below the horns (almost in line with the rear axles). You just have to make a couple of brackets that attach to the rear transmission mount frame.

I will take some pictures once i get the new engine/oilsystem mounted in my car (car is currently being restored).

[RMS Boxer Service]

No matter where the oil cooler is mounted, a bigger oil pump should'nt be nesserary. ½" inside diameter hose flows enough without pressure drop problems.
Front mounted oil cooler is kinda standard comfiguration on a lot of cars here in Denmark and Germany for that matter. Most people I know of use 26 mm pump
in this setup.
The problem with BIG oil pumps and stock oil system is that the amount of oil from the pump wiill keeps the pressure relief valve or valves wide open (bottom out)
and routes NO oil through the stock oil cooler no matter how hot the engine is. This is bad........  I have a friend who discoverd this the hard way many years
ago when a new engine was build with all the best parts and good intensions and a 30 mm pump. It blew apart big time on the freeway pretty soon after it
was build because of wide open pressure releif valves due to the size of the pump. 
A Berg relief cover would most likely have saved this engine or the engine should have been build without such a big pump

Just my 2 cent

/Rolf

[Phil West]

Another thing I just remembered, use a System 1 oil filter. It is the last filter you will ever buy, and the housing is constructed of finned aluminium. Pre fit all of your tins before you send them out for powdercoat, or paint. Loosely fitting tin will allow cool air to escape. Ive even seen a small bead of silicone used to make the tins leak free...

[/quote]

Up to last year Mesa performance had a guy making them an ally finned outer that fitted the Fram HP1, it's a brilliant accessory - bought down the oil temps on my van by 5 degrees F, not bad for 20 bucks and a 10 second instal time.  Unfortunately the material cost to the builder went up by something like a factor of 10 so he stopped making them and they are no longer available (unless any other supplier offers something similar).  I suppose some kind of home made jobbie would be possible with the right skills.....definitely makes a difference having some sort of finned aluminium round the oil filter

[Diederick/DVK]

rasser, is the lower one in the pic the size of oil cooler you mean?



btw, these are all the mesa coolers around. 24, 48, 72 and 96 plate

[Jon]

If one gets a higher output from the pump than the stock oil galley can handle (flow) The pressure will build big time in the first part of the galley, and you will read high numbers on your gauge. Not an ideal situation. The flow output from the pump should not be bigger that what the pressure relief valve can handle wide open, the valve is supposed to "build" the pressure, not the restriction on the way there. 

[Fasterbrit]

On the subject of keeping an engine cool...

I just had an interesting lesson in cylinder head temps and how they are affected by the spark plug lead not correctly fitting the cylinder head tin. Just bench ran a 1641 to break the cam in and I was monitoring the cylinder head temps on the outside of the tinware with an infra red heat gun, when I noticed that number 4 was running 40F hotter than the rest of the cylinders. I knew it wasn't a jetting issue as the motor was running the stock single carb. Anyway, kept checking the head temps and was scratching my head when I noticed that the plug lead wasn't fully home on Cyl 4 so air was leaking past the big rubber sealing grommet. Guess what? Fitted the lead properly and the head temp fell to that of the rest of the cylinders. I just goes to show how important a leak-free tinware setup is!

I am pressently working on building a 2276 for my Bay Bus tow vehicle and am using all genuine tinware, but I have modified the cylinder tin and other bits to make sure the tinware is as leak-free as possible.

Here's the tinware. It had a 4mm gap so was going allow a lot of hot air to rise in to the fanshroud...



I then cut some 4 mm strip and tigged it on and ground the welds flush



The front of the cylinder tin now has the crescent shape by the main bearing hardware welded...



The back of the tin is now super-snug too!



Cool runnings... hopefully

[Jim Ratto]

No matter where the oil cooler is mounted, a bigger oil pump should'nt be nesserary. ½" inside diameter hose flows enough without pressure drop problems.
Front mounted oil cooler is kinda standard comfiguration on a lot of cars here in Denmark and Germany for that matter. Most people I know of use 26 mm pump
in this setup.
The problem with BIG oil pumps and stock oil system is that the amount of oil from the pump wiill keeps the pressure relief valve or valves wide open (bottom out)
and routes NO oil through the stock oil cooler no matter how hot the engine is. This is bad........  I have a friend how discoverd this the hard way many years
ago when a new engine was build with all the best parts and good intensions and a 30 mm pump. It blew apart big time on the freeway pretty soon after it
was build because of wide open pressure releif valves due to the size of the pump. 
A Berg relief cover would most likely have saved this engine or the engine should have been build without such a big pump

Just my 2 cent

/Rolf

This same issue of holding bypass valves wide open happens with too heavy of a viscosity of oil too.
My old, late friend, Mike Collins told me this many years ago when he saw me pouring 40wt Gt1 into my car. One of his priceless, "trademark" comments... something like "hope you're going to take your decklid off" or something. Which made me beg him to elaborate.
He also taught me the System 1 filters don't filter all that well (then showed me all the black film inside my rocker covers).
Went to HP1 (and later Canton) and heads stay silver. But we've already covered filters in another post.....
 
Zach, sounds like your buddy's car was set up to do it all. I'm sure if I had my decklid open at top and a bunch of NACA scoops I could probably take my belt off and run around. But I'd keep my Setrab.  

[Zach Gomulka]

Zach, sounds like your buddy's car was set up to do it all. I'm sure if I had my decklid open at top and a bunch of NACA scoops I could probably take my belt off and run around. But I'd keep my Setrab.  

It was, but it also made more than 180hp and was driven in temps waaayy over 90 degrees...

[Lee.C]

Now this is really getting interesting 

I will be honest I have NEVER had a temp or pressure guage on my engine  The Empi ones on the dash don't work it would be interesting though 

The only tinware I run is a Scat 30hp style fan housing with the cooler out the back and the 2 cylinderhead tins - I don't run ANY of the bottom parts as its in a buggy, it all fits really really well - I run a smaller bottom pulley, a 32mm race trim pump a HP1 filter and 1/2 inch proper braided oil lines - I can drive at 3000rpm/80mph ALL DAY LONG in ALL weathers and I can ALWAYS put my hands round the HP1 after I shut her off and not burn myself - not the best method but it works for me 

P.S I will hook up those guages some day - don't worry guys 

[Lee.C]

I just had another thought - this ones for you tecnical guys 

Does having all that EXTRA Aluminuim on my engine ie: Fan belt cover, push rod tubes, rocker covers, larger dds manifold etc HELP dissipate all that heat better 

[Phil West]

On the subject of keeping an engine cool...

I just had an interesting lesson in cylinder head temps and how they are affected by the spark plug lead not correctly fitting the cylinder head tin. Just bench ran a 1641 to break the cam in and I was monitoring the cylinder head temps on the outside of the tinware with an infra red heat gun, when I noticed that number 4 was running 40F hotter than the rest of the cylinders. I knew it wasn't a jetting issue as the motor was running the stock single carb. Anyway, kept checking the head temps and was scratching my head when I noticed that the plug lead wasn't fully home on Cyl 4 so air was leaking past the big rubber sealing grommet. Guess what? Fitted the lead properly and the head temp fell to that of the rest of the cylinders. I just goes to show how important a leak-free tinware setup is!

Matt,

nice work!  I just did all new tin on the bug and spent several weekends cutting and grinding to get it all to fit - so much work.  Got my head tins really snug to the case just like yours.

Just to be clear about the plug leads - the old style VW ones come with the big round rubber grommets that close off the entire spark plug hole in the cylinder tin and I'm presuming you mean this made that big difference?  I don't run those big seals on the van so there's fairly chunky gaps there - so I'm best to make some round grommets (or rob some off an old set of original VW leads) to fit over the plug lead ends and seal it all up perfectly?

Cheers
Phil

[kafercup]

Let's go back to the original question posted by Jim and get some more info about the front mounted setups.  Can some of you euro fellas post up some pics, schematics or specs for the front mounted setups used on the streets and tracks?  Especially the systems used on some of the Kafer-Cup and similar cars.

[Jim Ratto]

Derek, check out email I sent you with the MBZ 126 180 0065 cooler... weighs about 4 lbs made by Behr
will easily fit up behind apron on your car.

[Rennsurfer]

All I'm gonna say on this subject is - NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!!!!!!!

Um, okay. But I suppose it's all relative to one's opinion. Case in point; my friend has had his setup like that since 1980, a year after he built the car. The car still runs, looks, and functions like the day it was built. Also still gets the front wheels off of the ground on take-off and it's a full trim 1970 with bumpers.

To each their own. Personally, I think it's a great idea... because I'm guessing that a transaxle would tend to have heat coming off of it. Making the front of the car a prime location to cool the oil. Dave's is a very low profile cooler and he built a protective cage for it. It's barely noticeable. On my next trip to Arizona, I'll try to get some shots of it. He used some ancient Benz Behr cooler and ran copper lines.

[sonic]

Whats a 4 mm tin gap ? Run for 5000 miles now with frontmouted setrab cooler and Porche 5 blade  Fan , reaching
120 m/h , no problms at all .. lucky  I suppose ...
Reg 

[Fasterbrit]

Phil

Yes you are right I am referring to the rubber sealing grommets that seal up the spark plug hole. Yes they really do make a big difference, so reckon you should make yourself some

Reckon we should start a post about general tips on keeping your engines cool...

[Jim Ratto]

Let's go back to the original question posted by Jim and get some more info about the front mounted setups.  Can some of you euro fellas post up some pics, schematics or specs for the front mounted setups used on the streets and tracks?  Especially the systems used on some of the Kafer-Cup and similar cars.

Hey Derek that Mercedes cooler is on its way north this weekend, and the lines should be there for you too. Thanks again,

Jim

[kafercup]

Let's go back to the original question posted by Jim and get some more info about the front mounted setups.  Can some of you euro fellas post up some pics, schematics or specs for the front mounted setups used on the streets and tracks?  Especially the systems used on some of the Kafer-Cup and similar cars.

Hey Derek that Mercedes cooler is on its way north this weekend, and the lines should be there for you too. Thanks again,

Jim

Thanks Jim!!!

[Diederick/DVK]

what kind of mercedes cooler jim?

[Jim Ratto]

what kind of mercedes cooler jim?

It's a Behr unit from W123 turbo diesel (or W126 with OM617 eng)....part # 1261800065

[Jim Ratto]

here's what I did to force cold air (compared to ambient near cooler) through my Setrab

[Rasser]

what kind of mercedes cooler jim?

It's a Behr unit from W123 turbo diesel (or W126 with OM617 eng)....part # 1261800065

Thats the type I mount under the framehorns!

[Diederick/DVK]

mmh, would be interesting to see what that looks like rasser.

anyway, me and 2 clubmates just ordered 3 cagero oilcoolers. will post a pic when it's been installed 

[Harry/FDK]

I'm going to mount 48 mesa twin coolers sideways of the framehorns. (Aluminum Case..) One with a 7" fan. The position will be as much as possible to the rear of the car (Height-Speedbumps etc)) and so they will just pick up air from the windspeed under the car. If the temps are to cool, i can just tape them up. If still hot i have to start all o.....

[Peter]

hey guys,
do you think its really necessary to have an external oil cooler in our cold countries?

[Lee.C]

hey guys,
do you think its really necessary to have an external oil cooler in our cold countries?

probably not but if you drive like me then you will 

[nicolas]

hey guys,
do you think its really necessary to have an external oil cooler in our cold countries?

probably not but if you drive like me then you will 

so yes for you too.