Lifters.. lifters....Bugpack or...

[airstuff]

Ok,I've been reading a lot about lifters.If I had money I would buy Udo's lifters.

This is my first engine though

The 2276cc engine will have the Engle FK-45 camshaft(have the camshaft already) with 1.4 rockers,and this is an agressive grind camshaft.

So do you guys think Bugpack lifters would cope with it ?  I see Mr. Jim Ratto had good results,but he only had 1.25 rockers on that camshaft.

Those Bugpack are about $50,and that is a great price.They are $70 if they get SLR treated.arted thinking about

Other option are CB lifters,but as I see some of you guys also plan on the Bugpack lifters(Diederick),so I started thinking about it,what if they aren't bad at all........

Maybe I would have good luck with them

[airstuff]

talked to Mark  @ Engle cams,and he suggested Scat lifters for this cam

do you guys think Scat got any better?

Not worth the risk.......hmm

[Torben Alstrup]

Scat is OK, as long as you get the SLR reground on them. Otherwise I would´nt use them with dual springs.  My personal choice would be CB 78 gr. lifters.
T

[dyno don]

being a believer of light valvetrain and embarking on yet another new project i set out to put a set of "lightweight" lifters in that are manufactured by none other than "mahle" and look very bitchin to say the least and was excited to finally get these  and found out after weighing them they are in fact 10 grams heavier than stock..!!....FYI>>these days its always a good reminder to doublecheck any lifter with a high power magnifier/you will see many imperfections in a bad lifter..!

[Udo]

Hi Don

58 gramms is lightweight 

Udo

[Bruce]

.... they are in fact 10 grams heavier than stock..!!....FYI

The same applies to the Scat "lightweight" lifters.  In fact, I think they are the heaviest lifters in existance.

[Jim Ratto]

Ok,I've been reading a lot about lifters.If I had money I would buy Udo's lifters.

This is my first engine though

The 2276cc engine will have the Engle FK-45 camshaft(have the camshaft already) with 1.4 rockers,and this is an agressive grind camshaft.

So do you guys think Bugpack lifters would cope with it ?  I see Mr. Jim Ratto had good results,but he only had 1.25 rockers on that camshaft.

Those Bugpack are about $50,and that is a great price.They are $70 if they get SLR treated.arted thinking about

Other option are CB lifters,but as I see some of you guys also plan on the Bugpack lifters(Diederick),so I started thinking about it,what if they aren't bad at all........

Maybe I would have good luck with them

I've run the Bugpack/Mahle lifters a bunch of times, and with consistency, this is the only lifter that has been consistently without problems, though i have not run Udos (hear great praise for his!) or CB's. In the 1990's Engle *told me* to run these (they were referred to as Tayco Bugpacks) after I had a Scat lifter failure. Yes my last motor had 8600 miles against dual springs (2 fresh sets) and with Engle FK45 first with 1.4 then with 1.25 and had no wear to cam or lifter bores.
I'm not plugging one lifter over another but i have too many sets of Web Cam and Scat lifters go away to do it anymore.

[dyno don]

dear udo...you rock my man !!...BUT...YOUR lifters going in my OTHER engine...LOL.....58 grams...!! holy crap..and yes i AM a believer...a great product..!!  peace out/dyno

[Harry/FDK]

I had mine from Aircooled.net: Lube-A-Lobe Scats (SLR treated) with Webcam. Perfect combo....What about my next set...In the future i'm going for UDO BECKER, and make me sleep better.

Harry

[Udo]

dear udo...you rock my man !!...BUT...YOUR lifters going in my OTHER engine...LOL.....58 grams...!! holy crap..and yes i AM a believer...a great product..!!  peace out/dyno

Don

The next 400 will be ready in a few weeks . I think there is  a set for you 

See you Udo

[airstuff]

I am ordering my CB lifters from VW Parts today.

What do you guys say,do I need 28mm or 30mm version for an Engle fk-45?

Thanks

[Martin Greaves]

28mm

[John Maher]

I am ordering my CB lifters from VW Parts today.

What do you guys say,do I need 28mm or 30mm version for an Engle fk-45?

Lifter diameter dictates lift velocity that can be ground into the cam. The FK4* series has more velocity than the likes of FK8, 10, 87, 89 etc. In theory a 28mm lifter is more than adequate for FK45 velocity.
BUT... case lifter bores are offset from centre of the cam lobe, effectively reducing the diameter the cam lobe actually 'sees'.
During trial assembly, cover the face of a lifter with engineer's marking compound. Rotate the cam while pushing the lifter into contact with the lobe. Check the pattern doesn't run off the edge of the lifter face. You might be surprised!
If it runs off you have two options: choose a cam with less lobe acceleration or go with a bigger diameter lifter.
If you don't, you'll wipe out both - rapidly. Less lifter velocity allows smaller diameter lifters and vice versa.
Rollers are a totally different story

===================================

Quick way to compare velocity of different cams: subtract dur@.050" from Adv dur.
Smaller the result, greater the velocity. FK45 is way more aggressive than FK89!
Normally only works for cams made by same mfg. Some cam companies use different methods for adv duration so comparisons between different makes won't necessarily be valid.

===================================

FK 45 should deliver around .560" at the valve w/ recommended 1.4.
Assuming your heads flow decent at that level (they should!), don't handicap yourself by fitting 1.25.
If you're scared of getting into coil bind/notching pistons/machine spring seats etc, better to choose non FK4* cam and go with a little extra duration to bump up area under the curve

===================================

If you're running a mag case the FK45 will almost certainly wear your lifter bores. Get them bushed from the off

===================================

Lightweight lifters are great but grams saved on the other side of the pivot are worth more due to multiplication of the rocker ratio ie valve/retainer.
Lightweight pushrods often cause more problems than any perceived weight advantage due to flex.

===================================

IMO the whole worn cam/lifters deal is an oil issue but that's a loooong story     
Scat Lube-a-lobes work great for me right out of the packet for most builds. No regrinding, no super-duper coating.
Breaking-in the engine properly with the right oil and subsequently running the engine - also with the right oil - should see you free of lifter problems

John Maher

[airstuff]

Hello Mr. John Maher,

Firstly I want to thank you for your answer,which made me understand some things,which I didn't understand before.

I have done my Mag case in Silicon Bronze,it was done by Brothers VW machine in USA.

Concerning the heads,I  have to choose the ones which flow the best at the advertisted lift.Don't have them yet,but the list of parts is at the end,and I am starting to measure things.

Thanks again

Zvonimir

[H67bug]

John

This is so informative, thanks.

What oil do you recommend with scat LAL lifters?

[Diederick/DVK]

thanks for the informative lesson john!

and yes zvonimir i'm using bugpack racing lifters, but i cannot yet tell you how well they perform

[airstuff]

and yes zvonimir i'm using bugpack racing lifters, but i cannot yet tell you how well they perform

how's your assembly going on?

[Diederick/DVK]

still haven't started...
thinking of stroking the engine

[Peter Roberts]

I am ordering my CB lifters from VW Parts today.

What do you guys say,do I need 28mm or 30mm version for an Engle fk-45?

Lifter diameter dictates lift velocity that can be ground into the cam. The FK4* series has more velocity than the likes of FK8, 10, 87, 89 etc. In theory a 28mm lifter is more than adequate for FK45 velocity.
BUT... case lifter bores are offset from centre of the cam lobe, effectively reducing the diameter the cam lobe actually 'sees'.
During trial assembly, cover the face of a lifter with engineer's marking compound. Rotate the cam while pushing the lifter into contact with the lobe. Check the pattern doesn't run off the edge of the lifter face. You might be surprised!
If it runs off you have two options: choose a cam with less lobe acceleration or go with a bigger diameter lifter.
If you don't, you'll wipe out both - rapidly. Less lifter velocity allows smaller diameter lifters and vice versa.
Rollers are a totally different story

===================================

Quick way to compare velocity of different cams: subtract dur@.050" from Adv dur.
Smaller the result, greater the velocity. FK45 is way more aggressive than FK89!
Normally only works for cams made by same mfg. Some cam companies use different methods for adv duration so comparisons between different makes won't necessarily be valid.

===================================

FK 45 should deliver around .560" at the valve w/ recommended 1.4.
Assuming your heads flow decent at that level (they should!), don't handicap yourself by fitting 1.25.
If you're scared of getting into coil bind/notching pistons/machine spring seats etc, better to choose non FK4* cam and go with a little extra duration to bump up area under the curve

===================================

If you're running a mag case the FK45 will almost certainly wear your lifter bores. Get them bushed from the off

===================================

Lightweight lifters are great but grams saved on the other side of the pivot are worth more due to multiplication of the rocker ratio ie valve/retainer.
Lightweight pushrods often cause more problems than any perceived weight advantage due to flex.

===================================

IMO the whole worn cam/lifters deal is an oil issue but that's a loooong story     
Scat Lube-a-lobes work great for me right out of the packet for most builds. No regrinding, no super-duper coating.
Breaking-in the engine properly with the right oil and subsequently running the engine - also with the right oil - should see you free of lifter problems

John Maher

Hey John ,

I took Shane Noone's 2276 apart last year , a guy named Mike bought the engine and box out of the Mexican Beetle that they were fitted in .

Here is the spec sheet I got sent Via Shane ...

JMR 2276 motor,
82mm CB Forged crank
94mm Mahle Barrels and pistons.
Total Seal Rings
Pauter Cro-Moly Race Rods
Engle FK 89 camshaft
Straight cut gears.
CB two piece lifters.
Berg Cro-moly pushrods.
Pauter Billet Alloy Rockers@ 1.4:1
CB 044 Wedgeport Heads with 44mm x 37.5mm S/S "Long Valve" upgrade from Comp.Elims and Big Race Springs with Titanium Retainers.
Compression Ratio is pegged at 10.5:1
Berg Stock size front pulley
KEP Stage2 clutch plate and Daiken Centre disc.
48 DRLA'S with 42mm chokes.
VSM Stainless 1 3/4" exhaust header.
VSM Stainless 2 1/2 " turbo muffler.
 
JMR DYNO'D MOTOR @ 201BHP/172 FT/LBS TORQUE

The car ran 13.7 at the track , I think he only raced once , and did very few street miles .

The lifters were actually plain Scat normal ones , I think Shane has gotten confused over that .

The lifters are all pitted , one of them very badly , 3 of them quite badly .

Now I have seen pitted lifter's come out of many engines , including ones built by myself .

And if they are doing the same in JMR engines , someone who has probably the most engine building experience in the UK , then it is obviously some issue with parts or something else .

I believe the oiling subject may have something to do with it . However a friend of mine works at the oils testing department of Castrol UK . They carry out extensive oil testing , and I told him what I had read about , the zinc content in oils being removed . He researched into the list of oils that I have been using , and the oils I use have the correct , or just over the minimum zinc content that has been discussed on other forums .

Do you think it is excessive idling of the motors , letting the cam dry out , if it idles in traffic for any length of time , is causing the trouble  ?

Is it where the engines sit dry over the periods of non use , then when they are cranked over , especially if the ignition is disabled , so they can be cranked for pressure . As the engine is cranked , and there is a period of time until sufficient oil drips from the crank , so that the cam and lifters grind together un-lubricated , and start the pitting process ?

Here are pic's of those lifters ...













I have had 2 engines apart , for top end changes , that I have used the 30mm CB 2 peice lifters on . Both engines had around 1000 miles on them , so not a long term test , but the CB lifters looked ok .

The CB lifters have a different finish on them , this seems to wear away to leave a mottled finish , that looks like pitting , but isn't , I wonder if the problem is that the lifter isn't turning properly as the cam lobe passes it , so instead of touching the lifter and spinning it , it spins it a little , but also grinds across it's surface , wearing it away bit by bit .

The CB lifters , seem to be left with a  ' grippy ' face , maybe it turns better as the cam passes it ?

I tried one of the engines that I had the top end stripped down , and turned the engine over , while on it's side on the engine stand , so only gravity was pushing the lifter onto the cam .Looking through the barrel holes in the case , and watching as the engine was turned over , the CB lifters turned perfectly .

Is this anything to do with the problems ?

All I know , is that I have never stripped down an engine , and not seen worn lifters . Ones built by myself , and many other engine builders I have seen in pieces with knackered lifters .

I have talked to several other UK engine builders , and they have , like myself , tubs full of knackered lifters . One of the UK builders says he just recommends a re-build every 3000 miles , surely that is ludicrous ?

Snap On Tools are bringing out an endoscope shortly , and I am buying one , so I can keep an eye on the CB lifters , and see if they hold up .

[John Maher]

Hi Pete,

The spec list isn't 100% correct - I've never used a set of CB lifters. Otherwise it all looks fine (from what I can remember ).

Don't recall exactly what Shane's best ET was with that engine (maybe I can get him to chip in?) but I know for sure it was over a full second quicker than the  new owner's 13.7 
I'm sure he'll improve with seat time. Shane's a pretty shit hot driver 

That engine is several years old now. Certainly got built before I made the switch to current oil routine. I'm assuming that's the most likely explanation for the pitted lifters.

Like you and too many others, I've seen plenty of pitted lifters. It's been a far greater problem in recent years than it ever was before.
I looked into this whole cam failure thing 2 or 3 years ago, figuring there had to be some logical explanation for the problems we were seeing.
Didn't happen before so why was it happening now?

I'll try and cut a very long story short but hopefully not skip the crucial stuff....

I've written a couple of tech articles for Volksworld on this subject explaining my thoughts and recommendations and go into some detail on the whole oil issue as far as flat tappet cams are concerned. AFAIK the articles are due to appear in the mag sometime soon. Here's the general gist.....

As mentioned in my earlier post, I believe oil is the major issue. Changes in formulation have come about due to emissions legislation and the quest for better fuel economy. Aircooled engines and other older engine designs with flat tappet cams form a minority of vehicles on the road and the majority of oil companies don't take the requirements of ancient designs such as the aircooled VW into account when formulating their best selling engine oils. The flat tappet V8 crowd have been going through exactly the same set of problems - it's not isolated to the VW community. Most people are now familiar with the ingredient ZDDP. Without going into the tech details, our engines need ZDDP and most modern oils don't have as much of it as they used to. Roller cams and overhead designs can get away with reduced ZDDP levels as they don't see the same high shear loads as a flat tappet design. Increased valve spring pressures, typical of your average performance VW engine exacerbate the problem

To complicate things further, there's a tendency for oil companies to retain popular brand names, despite changes to the oi recipe.
Take Castrol GTX as an example.... the GTX brand has been around for decades and the GTX from 30 years ago, which had adequate quantities of ZDDP for our flat tappet engines was a very different oil to the GTX formulation you buy today.
Brand loyalty is no guarantee of success

I spoke in depth with the people at Millers Oils (UK company) and as a result of what I learned, made the switch
Their 'Competition' range of oils is aimed at the Motorsport sector and as such isn't intended for cars off the factory floor. You won't find it in the local supermarket!
I should point out Millers aren't the only company making suitable oils but I've found no need to search for alternatives.... better the devil you know
I should also point out I'm not getting any special deals from Millers - I pay the same price as any other business.
Maybe if they see this they'll start giving me the stuff for free! (hint )

I believe the break-in process is critical.
If the lifters are going to pit they'll most likely start going away in the first 20 minutes.

Millers Running In Oil (CRO 10w40) is a mineral oil and has a 5 hour dyno life (or 500 miles on the road).
They recommend a specific break-in proceedure.... usual sort of thing - 20mins @ 2500 to 3000rpm but with varied load
Reason it has such a short life span is due to the additive package - all the vital ingredients needed to provide max protection between cam and lifter face on a flat tappet design, plus additives designed to assist ring seal.
The concentrated additive package breaks down fairly quickly though, making it unsuitable for extended use. Hence the short life span.
Great stuff for the first 20 minutes or so of your engine's life.

Advantage of carrying out break-in on the dyno is I can progressively increase load in a controlled manner eg 5 mins no load, 5 mins 1/4 throttle, 5mins 1/2 throttle etc. Load is adjusted accordingly to keep rpm between 2500-3000rpm.
This is a nice routine for sealing the rings as much as breaking in the cam. Leak testing the motor after each 5 min session shows how well the rings are sealing up, although I've now got the luxury of monitoring blowby while the engine's running

I'd be a little more concerned doing it with the engine fitted to the car - not as much control and no detailed real time data to track what's going on (EGTs, CHTs, AFR, blowby, etc etc.) but you could do a similar routine - first 5 mins stationary no load, followed by driving gently, progressively increasing load while keeping an eye on rpm. This is the stage many people get wrong and is probably the root cause of a lot of lifter failures

Other stuff..............

I like the oiling hole in the Scat lifter - more oil to the lifter face has to be a good thing.

Lifter rotation is critical. You're reliant on the radised face of the lifter and the taper ground into the cam lobe for this to work. If there's no rotation the lobe and lifter can't survive.

I know this whole topic has been (and continues to be) a major PITA for an awful lot of people.
I'm not claiming I've got the ultimate solution but I've found a combination that works for me and if I find something that works I tend to stick with it.
Others have no doubt found alternative solutions that work just as well

I've heard nothing but praise for Udo Becker's tool steel lifters. More than a few people have gone through three or four cams in less than a couple of thousand miles with conventional lifters and after switching to Udo's have finally put an end to the problem.
However not everyone is prepared to pay the relatively high price such a premium product commands.

I'm sure most people will agree having to rebuild a performance VW street engine every 3000 miles is totally unacceptable.
I don't accept the only way to ensure cam survival is to fit tool steel lifters.
Note: This is NOT a criticism of Udo's product
On the contrary, I'll specifically recommend Udo's lifters to anyone running extremely high valve lift/high rpm eg .650"+ @ 8000rpm+
Most of my customers running street/strip engines don't fall into that category.

Not aimed at you Pete, this is a general observation....
There are other causes for cam and lifter failure that no amount of good oil can prevent.
eg coil bind, incorrectly machined lifter bores, lack of taper on the cam lobe, sticky or worn lifter bores, lifter diameter too small (see my previous post), setting zero valve clearance for break-in, not enough rpm during break-in, too much spring pressure etc.
ie you can't ignore the basics

Hope that helps

There's more detail in the upcoming Volksworld articles - isn't there, Ivan? 

PS That SnapOn borescope looks nice but there are cheaper alternatives that do the same job. Only difference is they can't record movies..... or maybe you have other plans for the recording feature   

SHIT! so much for cutting a long story short   

John Maher

[Peter Roberts]

Watcha John ,

The new owner of the engine , hasn't raced it yet , in fact the engine isn't fitted into the car yet , I was told that 13.7 was the best Shane had got out of it . I saw some rolling road figures he had , from a rolling road session , and the horsepower came out the same .

Shane was running the 205-60-15 Yokohama Advan tyres that he ran before , and I believe , that with the 1.21 4th gear he had in his gearbox , the car was too low geared . Shane sold the gearbox as well to Mike , and he sold it on to another guy . The same gearbox , with 205-70-17 tyres , with a 2332 Long Valve Wedge-port headed CB 2289 ( FK87 ish ) cammed 10.5 to 1 engine , that probably made about 190  hp , ran 13.2 , with me driving . The 60 ft's were abysmal , and it was only my 2n'd ever go up a track , in the dark at last years VW Action . For a tyre comparison , Alex Noel , ran mid 13's on the same tyres , with one of your 200hp 2276's , which dropped to 12.3 on some tread-ed M&H's . So in Shane's engines case , I would say the mid 13 second time was more down to gearing than anything else .

From years ago , it was always written that you ran the cam and lifters together , to work harden them , and the 2500 rpm requirement , was to ensure adequate lubrication , as the cam is only lubricated by overspill from the crank and rod bearings .

I spoke to a friend of mine , who is a Tribologist , asking him about this work hardening thing , he didn't seem to think that rubbing parts together like that would do a great deal , it might add a tiny fraction to the Rockwell hardness , but he said it probably had more to do with establishing a wear pattern between the two parts . I remember talking to Max Moreley about this subject , and he had spoken to a metal specialist , and he had said much the same thing . Have you found anything out that makes the whole work hardening thing seem accurate .

Richard , my friend , used to work here on his Summer and Xmas hols , while at University . he is now in charge of most of the oils testing at Castrol . They have some very impressive stuff , engines of every type , running on test rigs , for hours on end . They have huge Cummins deisels , running flat out under maximum load for days , scary stuff , they sheared a dyno coupling on one engine , it peeled it apart like a banana . He did a lot of research on the new SLX Long-life oils , and explained to me , that most of their research on those , has been to reduce emissions , as you stated .

I did tell him about the ZDDP in the oil , and sent him links to the VW Speed and Drag Racing forum , and Cal-Look .Com , leading him to appropriate posts about ZDDP , and the required minimums , I can't remember what they were off the top of my head ( 0.0012 -0.0018 ? ) , but he read through the links I sent him , and checked the oils I asked him to , he sent me the specs of the oils ( Castol make oil for several different companies ) I asked him to check GTX , as well as Castrol RS ( changed to Castrol Edge ) . They all had the correct miminums , or slightly more .

I asked him about the whole additive thing , again posting him the links to the threads about the GM EOS additive and such like , and he agreed , that if you could attain the right proven additives , it would be beneficial .

How does the varied load on the engine make a difference to the cam and lifters , I can grasp the fact that it would help seal the rings , but does the load applied reflect to the tension between cam and lifter , is this not just down to spring tension and poundage , or does the change in load and engine dynamics alter this . I am very interested to learn more about this .

I have a set of UDO's lifters , to fit in a customers 2332 , I don't think they are that expensive if they work , they are a lot cheaper than rebuilding engines .

Since you changed oil routine , have you had any motors back for freshen up or rebuild , to give you a chance to inspect the lifters , with the different oil routine ?

As always , I am always interested in what you have to say , you have vast experience , and generally keep yourself to yourself , I know how you love forums  But it is interesting to have someone with more equipment thatn most , let on with their findings .

I'm sure there are other devices that work fine as Borescopes , but I am a Snap On whore , and I didn't know about the movie recording facility . Many people think I am up my own arse , when I get the Boroscope , I will be able to look and check and record the evidence 

And just incase you think my friend Richard was trying to fob me off , believe me , he has a vested interest as he is building an awesome Cal-Look Zwitter , with a 2276 with CB lifters / Web-Cam 86b combo . He was even on about assembling a trail engine , and taking it into work to research it himself , which would be immensly useful , having seen their facility and equipment and resources .

Rich's Zwitter ..

[Peter Roberts]

And here are some pic's of that Cummins that let go and sheared the dyno coupling  , ran at full load for 48 hrs , or somehing daft like that .

I know it's not related , but interesting anyway .

Interestingly , Rich said they were having problems with premature cam and follower or tappet wear , on modern engines , petrol and deisel . They were researching into this .

Anyway , Kaboom ...

Moderator: Images was removed by request of copyright owner.

[John Maher]

OK, I'm totally confused now....

...someone ran different profile tyres... changed ratios... sold something to someone... fitted a cam that was almost like another one... somebody else drove it... diesel engine in a Zwitter... blew its brains out in a dyno cell... and filmed it all with a Snap-On borescope 

JM 

[Peter Roberts]

Oh John , you're getting old , it's far to easy to confuse you nowadays 

When are VolksWorld going to publish these articles , it will be interesting reading for sure 

[Shane Noone]

Hello John / Hello Pete,

Seeing as how my name's been dropped into this tech article and John's nudged me to chip in i'll try and clear up any mis-understandings - ( AGAIN!! )

Ok for what it's worth then......................

I've been a customer of JMR for many moons now and between John and myself doing some R+D and talking to various others that were into tuning cars and not necessarily air-cooled VW's we decided on a combo for a street and strip motor ( this was always number 1 priority !! ) that became the 2276 motor that was fitted to my old blue '63 ( now owned by Justin Rivett? ).
To those that don't know the car it was all steel but stripped out with an off the shelf cage and corbeau buckets.This ran a cogbox built tranny with a 1.21 4th and 4.12 R+P with as Pete rightly said 205/60 yokahama advans.This incarnation of 2276 ran FK89 with Pauter 1.4 roller rockers and Scat Lifters ( de rigeur at the time with many builders ). The CR of this motor was 11.7:1 running shell optimax pump fuel rated at i think 98+ octane and just to be safe i would add a tipple of NOS systems "race" octane booster which in theory should have lifted the octane to 100+ but obviously still no lead in there.The oil i always used was Valvoline Racing 20 / 50 mineral oil. ( again this was by recommendation of other racers ) and the oil seemed good to me as it kept it's consistency way longer than most others i had previously tried and didn't blacken up too quick and all things considered seemed to do its job in the lube department considering the motor must have seen some lofty temps especially in the Street Eliminators i was running at this time. Best ET was 12.5@106 with consistent 12.7 / 12.8 at 102 / 103 mph. ( This motor made 197bhp@6500 on JMR dyno if memory serves )

Pete,you mention Alex Noel and quite rightly too.His 2276 was based on mine with an FK87 and CB O44's i think ( alex feel free to chip in as the old memory's bit jaded thees days ) and CR around 10.5+ Don't know what lifters or oiling he used but his Cogbox Tranny was not as close as mine running 1.04 x 4.12 and he ran regular high 12's  / low 13's on normal street tyres then ditched the fanbelt slapped on some M+H 's as you say but can't recall if these were treaded or full slicks and wittled his ET down to 12.3@105 i think

Now the Mexi bug with 2276 motor that Mike bought off me wasn't the same motor.It was "all new" as my old unit got damaged in a fluke incident with a wrought iron drainage cover that ripped the sump off at 60+ mph on a country road.
This motor was based on a one of those new fangled aluminium cases ( early autolinea not hi-roof version ).I still ran with an FK89 and same rocker setup in CB Wedgeports and all  else as the spec-list you've shown.It is my mistake then that i listed CB lifters and you have discovered them to be Scat ( GENUINE MISTAKE on my part wasn't trying to con anybody etc etc etc..............)
The mexibug was a stock bug and no concessions to kerb weight in any way.We tried to come up ith a "full-on" tranny combo that would push this car into the low 12's.But what looked good on paper didn't pan out in reality.From memory ( misplaced timing slips ) the best i could manage was 13.4@98 mph with as you say Pete awful 60 foot's............i concluded that with the extra weight of the mexibug over the '63 and the choice of a 3.88 R+P in the full on tranny despite having a 3.78 / 2.35 mainshaft,the 3.88 was all wrong for this car.However that is only my feeling as a racer and based on how i felt the car responded at the track and on the road.

Hopefully now we can put the whole question of "well Shane ran this and Shane ran that" to bed once and for all......................

More important to the original question of cams and lifters and getting back to my incorrect listing on the spec sheet, as John mentioned some years back now there was the whole speculation of mass market performance cams being made from sub standard iron billets that were too soft for some lifters and in particular those offered by Scat.To my understanding this was the general feeling on the matter and some like Max Morley decided that the way forward was to have Kent Cams in the UK grind him a camshaft with a similar "hardness" to Scat lifters.I remeber Max telling me about it down the ace cafe one night and i seem to remeber it was pretty darn expensive but if helped the cam / lifter combo to live would be worth it.Don't know how this all panned out in the end though?? Pete perhaps you can share the knowledge here ??

At this time John and i were planning my "new" 2276 with the aim off cracking the 200bhp mark still using Dellorto carbs.We talked about using CB 2 piece lifters as a softer option with the FK89 and i had genuinely thought this is what we went with but i'm sure if i dug out John's receipt now it most likely says Scat - AAAAAARGH !!!!
Incidentally i used same Valvoline Oil with new motor although i had heard rumours that it was nothing more than re-cycled oil !!??
Anyone work for Valvoline on here that can clear this one up I put this too Real Steel my supplier who said no way where did i hear that - still seems a popular choice in the V8 world anyways.........................

Pete thanks for putting up those lifter pics as i had heard from Max Jamieson how bad they were but seeing is believing - wow,they do look way worse than any i have previously seen come out of any of my street strip motors and this motor didn't have anywhere near the road miles or track abuse on it that my "old one did" Weird huh

Anyways sorry for putting most of you to sleep just thought i'd try and shed some light.....................................

Regards to you all,
Shane Noone

[Peter Roberts]

Hey Shane , how's it hangin 

I was only going on stuff that got forwarded to me , I knew mid 13's was about right . Like I said , we fitted your gearbox into another car , with a very similar spec Wedge-port motor , with a bit less cam ( FK87 , well CB equivalent ) , but obviously a bit more stroke and CC . That is what I tried in the car at Santa Pod , and ran a 13.2 , but on those not very grippy BF Goodrich 205-70's .

Those Yokohama Advans worked really well on your old car , Max ran 12.0 , and his 60 ft's were cool . I used the Alex Noel comparison as he ran the BF Goodrich 205-70's and the switch to decent rubber made a huge difference .

Mike is more that happy with the motor , we stripped it , because he is not having that closer gearing , and needs to drive longer distances , so we were going to swap for a Web-Cam 86c , or something like it .

I have massive respect for John , and was actually really relieved to see the lifters come out in such a state , I thought " Thank f**k it's not just me struggling with this problem " . I have buckets full of knackered lifters , so does Darren Chandler of Air Cooled Performance , and John Walklett , who's blue Bug is in this months VolksWorld , running 12's at Bug Jam .

I am getting that bore-scope to see how the CB lifters hold up , John Walklett told one of our guys that he had seen one explode  , I hope this was a one off .

As I said , my friend Richard , is well into VW's , as you can see by the time and effort he has ploughed into that Zwitter . He is very interested in the problems , and working for Castrol , obviously has it's bonuses in his knowledge .

I seriously believe one of the problems is cam drying , when idling in traffic . All my guys are instructed to bring the revs up every 30 sec's or so that they are in traffic .

Also , when the cars are not started for more that a week , I have my guys overfilling the engine 2 litres over the max mark , pulling the king lead and cranking the motor for pressure . This overfill puts the cam and lifters in oil , making sure it is not dry as it is cranked . The surplus is then drained , the lead re-connected , and the motor started .

I don't know if this is doing any good , but it can't help .

Once again , I respect John , and am relieved he has seen the same problems as the rest of us , his new oil set up sounds excellent , and I look forward to reading his findings in VolksWorld .

Take care

Pete

[Diederick/DVK]

this is interesting to read!

what's a king lead though?

[Udo]

I think it dosent matter what oil you use !! I take every oil , from mineral to synthetic

Udo

[Peter Roberts]

The King Lead is the main ignition lead

[Diederick/DVK]

the one to the coil? i get it now. thanks!!