Does SIZE really matter?

[Jim Ratto]

Nothing wrong with running a big 2332+, besides the $$$

But necessary for fast street car? Don't look down your nose @ 2000cc and under.

We've had these topics before, small old school motors, 12 sec 1776's and so on.

Thing is 12 second et in a VW is bordering on psychotic! A 14 sec ride is enough to open your eyes, especially in something as raw as a VW Bug. A good running 1776 should easily dip into the 14's, and easily hold its own at the stoplight showdown. A better running 1776, yes in street tune, welcome to the 13's. Thing is, so many 1776's, etc. get shortchanged with the monkey-see, monkey do recipe...  110 Engle, low CR, crusty out of the box heads. Leaves too much on the table. So the general consensus is "you gotta build a 2276 to make any hp", and nobody takes the smaller cc stuff seriously.

In the 1990's I helped guys with a few fast smaller cc motors, all 14 second or faster motors, the fastest being a 12.80 1914. None of them were what I would call grenades, a few of them were daily drivers. One had some serious $ into it, and it was the daily driver 1679.

I guess the point here is to spread acceptance of stock stroke motors.... and to convince guys that you can have a fast ride with one. No reason to look past building a 1776, K8, 40 x 35 heads with the kinks worked out, 9.0:1 and some 44mm + carbs.  Simple and easy recipe for a 13 sec car.

[Tony M]

I dont know about you but my wife say's size does matter 

[Jim Ratto]

I dont know about you but my wife say's size does matter 

Is that why she has the neighbor's housekey?

[javabug]

Hey Jim.  For those of us that haven't spent 1/2 of our lives around HOT aircooled cars, can you detail driving impressions between similar state-of-tune engines?  Head, cams, compression all similar or the same, but one motor with stock stroke, and one with increased stroke?

I can dig a stock-stroke motor, but for me at least, the draw of a stroker seems to come from the notion that the engine will have a totaly different "attitude"—a whole other level of "hot rod".

I don't mean to take your post into an unintended direction so I'll apologize ahead of time.   

[Udo]

Hi Jim

I am working on an old school 88x78,4 engine at this time for 2 reasons .1 i have all the parts in stock , good used , some i advertised but nobody wants them . 2 reason is to look what i can go on the track with it . I am realistic and watch out for 180 hp and 12 's . The engine must be good for street use also . Some do more power but i think it is what you can get on normaly aspirated engine and street use . All parts are used and the engine is not so expensive . Only on the heads i have to spend a lot of work

Udo

[Zach Gomulka]

I think a lot of it is a cost issue... why build a 1776 when a 1915 costs the same? Why use a 78 crank when a 82+ is only $30 more? And so it begins... for better or worse
But I do agree with you... I surprised quite a few 2+ liter VW's and 5.0 Mustangs with my little 14 sec hot rod 1600. It was fun telling people that it was just a stock size motor with a couple carbs on it

[Jim Ratto]

Hi Jim

I am working on an old school 88x78,4 engine at this time for 2 reasons .1 i have all the parts in stock , good used , some i advertised but nobody wants them . 2 reason is to look what i can go on the track with it . I am realistic and watch out for 180 hp and 12 's . The engine must be good for street use also . Some do more power but i think it is what you can get on normaly aspirated engine and street use . All parts are used and the engine is not so expensive . Only on the heads i have to spend a lot of work

Udo

Hi Udo, the 1900ccm 88 x 78 is a combination I've long had my eye on, and wanted to build. Are you using 88 'b' pistons? My idea would be a 88 x 78, 42 x 37 welded VW heads, egg port, short manifolds, 48IDA, 9.7:1, Engle FK87 with 1.5, Vertex. Maybe someday. This would go in a stock height 1967 Bug, maybe Enkei 5 spokes, loss of bumpers.
I'm curious how yours turns out.

Hey Jim.  For those of us that haven't spent 1/2 of our lives around HOT aircooled cars, can you detail driving impressions between similar state-of-tune engines?  Head, cams, compression all similar or the same, but one motor with stock stroke, and one with increased stroke?

I can dig a stock-stroke motor, but for me at least, the draw of a stroker seems to come from the notion that the engine will have a totaly different "attitude"—a whole other level of "hot rod".

I don't mean to take your post into an unintended direction so I'll apologize ahead of time.   

Hi Mike, I drove all of these motors to some extent, and have some impressions I can still remember. The only one I remember being really cold blooded and super cammy/hot tempered was the 1914 12.81 motor. It had an FK10, huge welded heads off of a midget, 40mm venturies in IDAs, 1-3/4 header. Otherwise, they were all very strong under all rpm/load/throttle position. Bryan Wenzel's 1679 was the motor that really stuck out. You could roll off from a standstill, get rpm just above idle, then floor it and the car would transfer weight and shoot ahead. the Webers sang like pipe organs as the rpms came up. this was a stock valved motor, but had the grunt of a high lift, big valve motor.
I remember this guy Dan Ruble I built a 1776 for, he was absolutely horrified that I wanted to put a Web Cam 86B in. I did it anyway. This was a low CR (under 9:1), very mild 40 x 5 heads, 1.4 rockers, the 86B, and 48IDAs. Oh he was panicking that the motor would nosedive under 4K. Once we got it broken in and dialed in, I took him for a ride, and did the same thing, just rolled it off idle, not much throttle, just basically idling around in 1st gear, then stuffed the throttle and he about fell into the back seat. Bate's 1776 "Heather Lane War" motor was another one. It was strong as a bull off idle, and just kept pulling (unfortunately, this motor had a bad flat spot in the progression area that we never really got rid of).
I guess the best thing I have noticed about a stroker vs a stock stroke? It's gotta be that everything happens sooner and stronger. But this is in no way saying that a high ouput 1776 is weak in its delivery. I remember when I first went 82mm in my car, and even though it had big Super Flows and 48's and GB 311 cam, it responded RIGHT NOW to the throttle. The 1776/1914's.... it's not like they laid down and gave up, they just didn't give the same intense push in the back immediately. But still very fast by any standards.
Hope that helps.

[Sarge]

 Only on the heads i have to spend a lot of work

Udo

Definitely the key for a small size engine.  What size valves do you plan to use?

Had my share of 1700's over the years with a single two barrel, 40P11's and IDA's and I thought they all ran good and were an easy build.  You can make a lot out of very little if you put your mind to it.

[javabug]

Hey Jim, that's what I was looking for.  Thanks.  I do intend to rework my 1835 in a few years.  Have a c/w 69 sitting waiting for it.  Probably end up a small-valve IDA motor, hopefully.  We'll see.

[Jim Ratto]

Hey Jim, that's what I was looking for.  Thanks.  I do intend to rework my 1835 in a few years.  Have a c/w 69 sitting waiting for it.  Probably end up a small-valve IDA motor, hopefully.  We'll see.

Perfect. K8 makes a nice cam for 1835 too

[lawrence]

I dont know about you but my wife say's size does matter 

Is that why she has the neighbor's housekey?

HAHA. I laughed out loud to that one.

Jim, when I drive around in my 1914, 86b, 40x35.5s, IDAs etc. I always think it must be INSANE to drive a 2276 with similar or more radical components/tune on the street. They must be like bullets! I would probably get thrown in jail, or not have a license if I owned one. My next motor may or may not be bigger. I will probably just ask friends what nice, useable they have and go from there. 88x78 sounds fun!

[67worshipper]

definetly alot of recipes out there.standard stroke still builds a fast motor.like jim said dont be blinded by size a 14 sec motor on the roads gonna shock the boys for sure

[RFbuilt]

wonderful topic jim! 

very interesting.. and this is one of the things that keeps me awake at night haha

the common concesus says..bore it if ur gona Bore it.. and stroke it accordingly.. 

for more power or if u want sumthing like 150ish..

we have lesser discussions on displacement to whp ratio..  the bigger the motor.. and make 150-170  sounds OK  but better if it was a little smaller in the displacement..  not to prove anything.. but just to make things fun..

85.5x74 , 88x74, 88x76 to ur eye catcher 88x78 hehe 
i guess the smaller details on the build itself is what will make the engine work.. from "ok" to "good" to excellent

maybe the 88 bore and a little lower r/s ratio would emulate a similar breathing demand from a lets say... 94mm p/c 

than maybe figure out a cam that would help or work along those lines?
very interesting topic indeed..and  il keep an eye on this..  to learn more.. yeah i need to learn a ton more haha

[team97]

Mark Herberts story hijacked from the Cal Look site (small motor w/ N2O or big motor no N2O) your choice

[Rennsurfer]

Had my share of 1700's over the years with a single two barrel, 40P11's and IDA's and I thought they all ran good and were an easy build.  You can make a lot out of very little if you put your mind to it.

Amen, brother. I've always believed in that theory, as well.

[Hotrodvw]

Good topic Jim!  I'm about ready to yank out my 1641, and am torn between a turbo for it, or lots of head work and a cam.  I'm liking the N/A idea more and more.  I was driving thru some hills on my way home the other day, w/ a Porsche Boxster behind me, riding my butt.  I held my own thru the hills, but I wanna run away from them.   

[Udo]

 Only on the heads i have to spend a lot of work

Udo

Definitely the key for a small size engine.  What size valves do you plan to use?

Had my share of 1700's over the years with a single two barrel, 40P11's and IDA's and I thought they all ran good and were an easy build.  You can make a lot out of very little if you put your mind to it.

I have some original 311 castings , welded them on and under the intake ports , 42x35,5 valves relocated 12 mm spark plugs . This is the best way to get a good head that makes power and keeps cool because of the original  casting . This are heads for live , i never had any problems with cooling or cracks . I have a set of this in original 041 castings that made 225 hp on a 2,4 engine on the circuit track
Pistons are from Wahl , this is the one that makes racing pistons for mahle, very strong and lightweight pistons that i ordered 10 years ago for a circuit racing engine.
Regarding to the cam i think about a Pauter

Udo

[Udo]

I dont know about you but my wife say's size does matter 

In real life may be not 
But if you want to go fast on the track you need big sizes (big pistons and long rods)

Udo

[j-f]

I buy my parts from a guy in France. I never meet him, but he gives so much advices through the Net that I found normal to buy my parts from him.

From time to time, he gives some parts combo that work well, are affordable from a €€ view but also from a technical point. He says that a well build 1585cc is a very fun engine that will not cost you a kidney and will last as long as you service it correctly.
A 1600cc with a vz25, basically ported and polished heads with dual springs 8.5cr, dual 40mm carbs with 34 vent is able to run a 15.5 with a stock gearbox.
Or a 1600cc with Webcam 122/125 // 105° lobe center + 2° advance , 9.1cr is a very hot engine he says.

When I ask him what kind of engine I should build to put in a street and strip bug he advices me a 69*94, webcam 86b +1.4, 041 reworked heads or 044cnc, 48IDF. I was planning to build a 78*90.5 but he says that I will have lot's of fun with this a stocker and with the money I save on the cranck I could buy better heads.

Lot's of people dream  to put a fun and powerful motor in their car, but are dishearten because they think they have to build a 12sec thing to have fun. 12sec is the time of cars as Ferrari or Porsche 997 Turbo. That's not common car.
As Jim says, 14 sec is fast enough to have fun.

[Sarge]

 Only on the heads i have to spend a lot of work

Udo

Definitely the key for a small size engine.  What size valves do you plan to use?

Had my share of 1700's over the years with a single two barrel, 40P11's and IDA's and I thought they all ran good and were an easy build.  You can make a lot out of very little if you put your mind to it.

I have some original 311 castings , welded them on and under the intake ports , 42x35,5 valves relocated 12 mm spark plugs . This is the best way to get a good head that makes power and keeps cool because of the original  casting . This are heads for live , i never had any problems with cooling or cracks . I have a set of this in original 041 castings that made 225 hp on a 2,4 engine on the circuit track
Pistons are from Wahl , this is the one that makes racing pistons for mahle, very strong and lightweight pistons that i ordered 10 years ago for a circuit racing engine.
Regarding to the cam i think about a Pauter

Udo

Years ago, Type III casting were what Fumio used for my sandrail heads. He said the same as you about the cooling and durability.  The intake ports were welded on quite a bit and the plug holes were relocated as well.  Valve size was 40X35.5.  Those pistons sound like they're pretty nice....

[Udo]

If the heads are ready i post some pictures of heads and pistons . But i think the CB 88 piston and cylinders that need case boring are also good for this kind of engine .

Udo

[Udo]

A 1600cc with a vz25, basically ported and polished heads with dual springs 8.5cr, dual 40mm carbs with 34 vent is able to run a 15.5 with a stock gearbox.

For this you need 115-125 hp at the engine

Udo

[Hotrodvw]

This is great for me.  I see small combos popping up.......which is what I need.   

[Jim Ratto]

VZ25 in under 1700cc IS a potent combo....that's what I ran in high school and nicked off a few V8's

[dirk zeyen]

perfect thread

in keith seume's cal-look book you can read very important things... page 51 about aronson's car: he then stepped up to an 1800cc engine with an engle 130 cam, 10.5:1 compression ratio, a close ratio transmission and a pair of recapped slicks. a further trip to the drag strip resulted in a 13.50 timing slip. in aronson's words, it was a real bear to drive on the street with such a high-lift, long duration camshaft coupled with the close-ratio gears. he therefore replaces the camshaft with another engle 110, lowered the compression ratio and then rebuild the transmission with stock gear ratios. with pirellis back on it , the car still ran a healthy 13.86- second quarter mile."
what more can i say?!?  many people use to big cams, to big valves, to close-ratios gears,to big cranks, to much compression,the list goes on. no fun on the street and  only a little bit faster at the quarter mile

i like to drive my car on the street and ready for a stop light race without rebuilding it every few weeks.

dirk zeyen

[RhoadsVW]

Always had 88's on my motor.  As Bill Schwimmer calls it a buss motor. But always happy with the times it runs and comfortable to drive on the street

[dirk zeyen]

hello dave rhoads,

you changed the valve size from 40/35.5 to 42/37.5 is there a big difference?

dirk zeyen

[RhoadsVW]

I don't know where it came from but the exhaust is still 35.5mm.  The intake was changed due to a flow improvement that went the wrong way.   But with the 42 valve the velocity came back and the times improved back into the twelves again.

[Jim Ratto]

Dave you, your car, your engine, all big inspiration for me and a lot of other guys too. Seeing you run your car @ Phoenix 1990....  priceless.

much repsect,
Jim

[Bill Schwimmer]

bus motors usually have 90.5's now...