Horizontal 911 Cooling Fans

[drgouk]

Hi, Looking for peoples experiences with Horizontal 911 Cooling Fan set ups like the belt driven type, http://www.riechertmotorentechnik.de/ I have read that that people use to have trouble with the corvairs throwing belts with the same belt drive, would like to hear if the same holds true with the above type of set up. Please share your experiences. Thanks

[fahrvergnugen]

Hi, Looking for peoples experiences with Horizontal 911 Cooling Fan set ups like the belt driven type, http://www.riechertmotorentechnik.de/ I have read that that people use to have trouble with the corvairs throwing belts with the same belt drive, would like to hear if the same holds true with the above type of set up. Please share your experiences. Thanks

Hi,

Ask Airspeed (Walter, he's also on the lounge) he drives type4 turbo with Riechert.

Paul.

[drgouk]

Thanks, I will check with him.

[fahrvergnugen]

Hope Walter don't mind me steeling his pic's

[Airspeed]

Yep, that it 

The original Riechert set-up doesn't throw belts at all. I spoke to some other long term users (one owner of a GSR with a 2,6 who also drag races it for 25 years now (high 11's)) and the same story: no belt throwing at all.

The home made systems however usually DO throw belts. I think its in the sizes and construction of the pulleys.

Riechert apperently also made them for type 1 engines, but I never seen one. Both systems were quite expensive back in the days...

Best regards,
Walter

[drgouk]

Thanks for the feedback airspeed.

Has anyone seen a 90° gear driven set up like a 935 porsche on a Vw? Turning the fan only.  Like this  http://www.promotive.com.au/_projects/Fan/Horizontal%20Fan%202.jpg

[Airspeed]

Thanks for the feedback airspeed.

Has anyone seen a 90° gear driven set up like a 935 porsche on a Vw? Turning the fan only.  Like this  http://www.promotive.com.au/_projects/Fan/Horizontal%20Fan%202.jpg

That is very probably way too expensive for a vw engine. Even for a porsche race engine its expensive...

This is from my build at the moment:

[Fast Eddie]

does this set up cool efficiently? any tests been done? im curious as i run a regular vertical porsche cooling set up and alot of people say it over cools 2 cylinders and under cools the other 2....
what about head temperatures? are there any vanes to direct the air to the heads or does it just go over them anyway?

[Airspeed]

does this set up cool efficiently? any tests been done?

Yes and yes.

I have run a few types of vertical 911 fan set-ups on type 4 engines and also this horizontal set-up with 4 CHT's installed and two CHT gauges on all engines.

The horizontal set-up was not on the exact same engine as the vertical ones were, but my experience with both types leads me to believe the horizontal set-up is slightly better in absolute temperatures and without vanes inside cools more evenly. The vertical set-ups can be made to cool evenly as well, but do require vanes and some testing to get the vanes positioned right.

Hope this answers your questions 

[Fast Eddie]

yes it does thankyou!
what sort of head temps have you seen on your engines?
im not sure why im asking this as i have no temp gauges fitted on my motor yet!!!

[drgouk]

Hi Walter/Airspeed, are you still running the horizontal set up? I am thinking of making one.

Regards

David Gouk

[Frallan]

LA Speed from Lee Arnold.
I bought the basic kit and have recently updated to the CF shroud.



This is not mine but a borrowed beautiful picture how nice it can look.

[Frallan]

I think one very important difference in amateur built setups is the angle of the break roller. It should be as in these pictures above.

[morkrieger]

I have seen a few electric versions of this setup in Autocross and Drag race events. I recall a UK based company making these as well...?

Orratech in Germany is prepping a prototype and is aiming for a production run on his own iteration of the Riechert system 

http://www.typ4shop.de/product_info.php?info=p267_Neuheiten---liegendes-Geblaese----.html

I actually own a TYP1 Riechert system and interestingly enough it looks exactly as the LA speed setup, with the cooling fan
'flush' with the shroud. Typ4 setups i have seen usually have the fan sitting 'on top' of the shroud.

[BeetleBug]

I actually own a TYP1 Riechert system and interestingly enough it looks exactly as the LA speed setup, with the cooling fan
'flush' with the shroud. Typ4 setups i have seen usually have the fan sitting 'on top' of the shroud.

Hi morkrieger,

How much did you have to pay for the T1 Riechert system?

-BB-

[morkrieger]

Hi Beetlebug,

I paid too much, years ago, as i bought the racing engine that was attached to it as well, which threw a rod and grenaded itself....

Riechert is still in business.

Here's a direct link to the typ1 kit:

http://www.riechertmotorentechnik.de/geblaese/luftfilt_axialgeblaese_typ1.htm

it says price on request, i expect it to be in the 1600 Euro range though...

[BeetleBug]

Hi Beetlebug,

I paid too much, years ago, as i bought the racing engine that was attached to it as well, which threw a rod and grenaded itself....

Riechert is still in business.

Here's a direct link to the typ1 kit:

http://www.riechertmotorentechnik.de/geblaese/luftfilt_axialgeblaese_typ1.htm

it says price on request, i expect it to be in the 1600 Euro range though...

Thank you for answer. I used google translate:


Riechert axial cooling air blower for type 1 engines:

Features:

    More cooling air quantity
    Even cool air distribution on all cylinders and cylinder heads
    There is no separate electric fuel pump needed
    The original mechanical fuel pump of the type 1 engine remains in place

We have developed the axial fan provides cooling air at any technically-possible performance level regardless of the rated speed of the engine accordingly for proper cooling.
Its use is particularly useful where a tuned engine a high continuous load is required, eg on long highway full throttle loads.
Due to its rugged construction is virtually no wear on the parts kit possible.
The high performance wedge-belt, despite his diversion hardly a shorter lifespan than the series-belt of the original engine. The pulleys for the belts are equipped with staubdichtgekapselten and sealed ball bearings. The mounted below the blower wheel 12-volt three-phase alternator has an output of 1050 watts.
The Riechert-axial blower kit can be applied to any engine block of Type 1 (Beetle engine) or Type 3 (flat) motor mount. To fit the kit no machining of the engine block is required.
The alternator has its own built-in controller (only at 1050 watts!).
When using a Riechert-full flow oil cooling only the thermostat-type TGE is needed!

Blower kit complete, consisting of:

    Impeller (911)
    Three-phase alternator, 1050 watts with built-in regulator (Porsche 911)
    Blower-outer ring made of cast aluminum (*)
    Tower block of cast aluminum (*)
    Oil Filler (*)
    Cooling air guides (right and left) of fiberglass reinforced polyester, dyed red (*), available with connecting piece for heating, optionally without hydrants
    Axis with ball-bearing rollers, steel, chrome (*)
    V-belt pulley (on crankshaft), steel, chrome (*)

(*): The so-marked parts are structural components of Riechert-engine technology. Konstuktions-subject to change.
Price: on request

So basically it is a complete kit with Porsche fan all the needed parts, ready to bolt on a T1 engine.

-BB-

[morkrieger]

Beetlebug,

That's correct!

I would like to add that the steel crankpulley is very heavy, at least the one on my engine was, would suffice as a 'small' equalizer pulley.

[BeetleBug]

Beetlebug,

That's correct!

I would like to add that the steel crankpulley is very heavy, at least the one on my engine was, would suffice as a 'small' equalizer pulley.

Is it not possible to use with any crank pulley?

[morkrieger]

Any 'porsche size' pulley will do, as far as i know. Stock T1 will over rev the fan,

unless you want a hovercraft...

If you really want to, i could compare this riechert pulley against a stock t1 or whatever i have laying around in the garage.

[drgouk]

I think one very important difference in amateur built setups is the angle of the break roller. It should be as in these pictures above.

Hi Frallan, Do you have some more pictures of the complete kit showing how the fan is held etc? Does it use a orginal fan/ring or aftermarket? Thanks

David Gouk

[BeetleBug]

Any 'porsche size' pulley will do, as far as i know. Stock T1 will over rev the fan,

unless you want a hovercraft...

If you really want to, i could compare this riechert pulley against a stock t1 or whatever i have laying around in the garage.

Please do, I have a small diameter pulley (crank trigger).

[morkrieger]

Beetlebug,

In 2 weeks i'm near the engine again, i'll measure it up.

A small diameter 146 mm (thats porsche size IIRC) will do fine, as the fan used (and thus fan pullley) is stock porsche.

[Frallan]

I think one very important difference in amateur built setups is the angle of the break roller. It should be as in these pictures above.

Hi Frallan, Do you have some more pictures of the complete kit showing how the fan is held etc? Does it use a orginal fan/ring or aftermarket? Thanks

David Gouk

Nope.
I will have to manufacture that myself. It is a reflection though why it did not come as a complete kit.

[drgouk]

I think one very important difference in amateur built setups is the angle of the break roller. It should be as in these pictures above.

Hi Frallan, Do you have some more pictures of the complete kit showing how the fan is held etc? Does it use a orginal fan/ring or aftermarket? Thanks

David Gouk

Nope.
I will have to manufacture that myself. It is a reflection though why it did not come as a complete kit.

Will you be using an orginal Fan/Ring or aftermarket, like the BAS that uses the golf alternator?

[andy198712]

can you run through that golf alternator thing....?

[richie]

can you run through that golf alternator thing....?

some copies of the porsche fan and ring were made for these kits,and designed to take a golf alternator as a cheaper option to the porsche ones

cheers richie

[Frallan]

Original.
I have had it on many of my engine development steps. It is upgraded with a 90 amp alternator.

[drgouk]

Is Airspeed/Walter still running his horizontal fan? I thought I saw that he was modifing a upright deal?

[Airspeed]

Is Airspeed/Walter still running his horizontal fan? I thought I saw that he was modifing a upright deal?

Correct! My original T4 Riechert set-up from the mid-seventies still used the original 172mm (sort-of original T1 size) steel front pulley and I think that made it very stable not throwing the belt.
However, I use launch control during 1/4 mile events and that plus the rpm-(soft)cut at 7700 rpm made it throw a fan belt after all sometimes. But sometimes during rounds this can be very annoying as switching belts with my exhaust running very close to the pulley, is very time consuming.

Also, after 6K rpm the drag of the two extra 90 degree pulley's made it loose quite some hp up top there. 0.05 bar extra boost usually helps to equal this out, but if you're as anal as I am...
Sooo, after ample consideration, and the emerging of a new 'centrally orientated' vertical fan arrangement with also new 964-style rear fan housing which looks to cool as well balanced as the horizontal set-up, I decided to make the switch and save about 3 kg rotating weight and about 4,5kg total static weight reduction.

I also switched clutch and flywheel to lower rotating mass so my turbo'd engine would respool faster between shifts. I even installed a smaller turbo and a different cam to enhence all this.
The switch was therefore also part of a bigger engine upgrade program ;-)
It did cool very well absolutely and was very well balanced between cylinders. With a T4 you also don;t have to machine the case for it, so it is/was indeed a cool piece of kit!

Hope this helps Dave,
Walter