Reliable N/A 225-230hp type 1 engine?

[Torben Alstrup]

It´s already done, at least 3 times Udo.
So no problems there. They easily pull 250 very reliable street hp. (Roughly 90 hp/l) out of the box.

I havent done it yet. I´m working on one this winter (but only 2,4 l.) to see if I can hit 100 hp/l.

T

[karl h]

udo: i used limbach heads. i had to machine down the 4" barrels and use a thick copper headgasket to make it fit, but it worked
sorry for the cellphone pics
and this thing is narrower than a 1600 engine, so it fits like a glove in an early compartment

[Udo]

Limbach heads are also a good choice , very good cooling but for 101,6 for me a little too weak

Udo

[karl h]

since i didnt modify the bore these heads are used with (97 nickies), i felt i would be ok. the guy i built it for will use it with porsche cooling and i used the oilsquirters out of a 911 for cooling the pistons. the flywheel attachment is not set up for drag racing with slicks

[-Alex-]

So far, i have decided to build 86x94 engine, which includes TF-1 case, nickies and JPM heads.

Are then  my only options for flywheel attachment with 8-dowel crank and wedgemating perhaps if flanged cranks doesnt work at the street? How about WBX bolt pattern and 5 dowells?

Didnt berg use to make cranks at special order with all T4 mains or center T4 main and WBX bolt pattern? Only thing if using all T4 mains, where to get bearings if case is at T1 dimensions.  Dollar to Euro rate, Berg price doesnt sound too bad.. 

With wedgemate done properly, will the parts get looser at every time when you disassemble it. How about oil leaks?

[Udo]

As far as i know Bergs do not offer their cranks any longer. Good parts are expensive and not easy to sell ....

Udo

[-Alex-]

I think M-spec and Moldex can do custom crank, but these cost maybe atleast $2000.   Again, the question, what is in my mind, will the wedgemated parts get looser at every time when you disassemble it?

This kind of custom crank with all T4 mains and WBX bolt pattern would be nice, if i could find correct thrust bearing. Rest of the bearings can be found quite easily. Question is, is this really much stronger than 8-dowelled attachment?

[karl h]

you can get a wbx crank welded up to 82mm and with counterweights at dpr (dprmachine.com)
for using them in the the T1 case you have to linebore it 1mm oversize and use a combined set of wbx and T1 bearings (as explained above)
one area to think about is the flywheel to use: the wbx one is the same as type 4, so you get differnt clutches 200mm (early type 4, hard to get), 210mm, 215mm, 228mm (wbx/late type 4), so using the readily availible T1 clutches is a problem if you dont have an early flywheel, there is a 215mm cushlock disc though (CSP has it). for other setups you have to investigate with someone into type 4s (yuck), not me

[-Alex-]

If crank has all T4 mains, and case is bored to T4 size, does then T4 bearings fit right in?  Can alucases handle linebore to T4 size?  If crank has T4 mains and WBX bolt pattern, does stock T4 flywheel fit or CSP flywheel for 200mm clutch? I can get here custom made flywheel at good price.

[Udo]

I would use adapter bearings to fit type4 crank journal to type1 case

Udo

[-Alex-]

Hello Udo,

is there adapter bearing available for thrust end? I can find easily split bearings for 2 and 3 journals with type 1 outside and type 4 inside diameter.

[Stripped66]

Heh...that pile of shite looks vaguely familiar...

[Stripped66]

Hello Udo,

is there adapter bearing available for thrust end? I can find easily split bearings for 2 and 3 journals with type 1 outside and type 4 inside diameter.

You could run the adapter bearing on the #1 main if you modified the case for the center-thrust conversion, such as what Jack Sachette and Rocky Jennings offer. You've got options...

[-Alex-]

Sorry about loaning your picture


Is this center-thrust conversion, such as what Jack Sachette and Rocky Jennings are offering, good for street driving & lots of miles? Any pictures or better explanation?  I couldnt find any info about it from JayCee website.

[Stripped66]

Sorry about loaning your picture

Not a problem 

Is this center-thrust conversion, such as what Jack Sachette and Rocky Jennings are offering, good for street driving & lots of miles? Any pictures or better explanation?  I couldnt find any info about it from JayCee website.

Here is a photo I borrowed off of Mike Lawless' website:



Several OEMs use a thrust arrangement on the center-main, and the surface area is greater than the traditional VW thrust on the #1 main; the center main conversion should be fine for street driving and lots of miles.

[Jon]

Question is, is this really much stronger than 8-dowelled attachment?

According to the math the answer is a big fat yes. Those five bolts when correctly stretched will withstand from 780 to 1100Nm. Purely static calculations though, so actual values might be lower.
A WBX crank is in my future at least, great information in this thread! 

[karl h]

just to be clear: the wbx crank has only no 1 bearing in type 4 size, the rest id type 1 size
i dont think you can bore a type 1 case to type 4 bearing diameter, these bearings are a lot larger than the wbx outside diameter, oil holes wont line up etc...
i tried to run a mag case with a wbx crank with a berg split main type 4 conversion bearing in the no 1 location (with wbx thrust shims), that didnt work, it ruined the bearing in a couple of hundred km. it seems that the saddle was moving too much to keep the bearing round. maybe you can get away with an alu case (stiffer) and shuffle pins.
the center thrust is a high $ conversion as far as i know, definitely more expensive than just getting a 1mm linebore and use a matched set of bearings.

[-Alex-]

About WBX crank, and its different size mains.. i was thinking that if i could get made crank with all T4 mains and WBX flywheel bolt pattern. I have asked, no one has yet replied. Custom crank is not that expensive, at least at this Dollar to Euro exchange rate...ok, it is a bit expensive compared to chinese cranks. So there is no number 1 thrust bearing available for this kind of conversion?

 

[karl h]

there is no shoulder bearing i know of for the waterboxer (maybe the early engines 1983+86 have one?), but then it would be type 4 outside diameter to be strong enough, so this is a no go i think
is it really worth all the trouble to fit all type 4 mains for your application (see title)? for allout dragracing maybe.....
its easy to get carried away and loose you initial goal out of sight (ask me how i know)

[-Alex-]

I found picture about early WBX bearing set from CSP-shop.  I dont't know if the pic is real, but there is shouldered bearing on 83-85 bearings, later is non-shouldered. I have been told that all WBX have same size flywheel side journal, right?

[Udo]

Cutting a mag case for early wbx thrust bearings is no problem . 70mm outside and 21 mm for the thrust. I did this often for street engines when the old okrasa 76,4 cranks where avaliable 

Udo

[karl h]

oh, cool
now i learned something new!

[-Alex-]

Mee too What size are T4 bearings from outside? same or bigger than this 70mm early WBX case thrust bearing?

With WBX bolt pattern, would this 200mm T4 flywheel be bolt on?

http://aapistons.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=5&products_id=92

[karl h]

i dont see why not

[Stripped66]

Yes, the Type 4 conversion flywheel will bolt right on. (FWIW, I'm running a Type 4/200mm flywheel I bought from Jake Raby)

[Udo]

Mee too What size are T4 bearings from outside? same or bigger than this 70mm early WBX case thrust bearing?

With WBX bolt pattern, would this 200mm T4 flywheel be bolt on?

http://aapistons.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=5&products_id=92

What crank do you think about now ? If you ever want to sell your porsche rod journal crank let me know 

Udo

[-Alex-]

I didnt bought that porsche rod bugpack crank yet. Trying to get contact to custom crankshaft manufacturers, but not yet luck wery much. Pauter and M-spec said that they cant offer me this kind of crank.

[Udo]

I know that they do not manufacture cranks like that    The only one will be moldex .

Udo

[-Alex-]

Too bad  that they don't manufacture, would be easy probably to make out of chinese raw forgings

[karl h]

berg offered waterboxer cranks, maybe they still do?