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Author Topic: Reliable N/A 225-230hp type 1 engine?  (Read 51272 times)
-Alex-
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« on: February 09, 2011, 08:08:59 am »

I am interested to put 220-230hp N/A type 1 engine together for mainly street use.

Wonder that wich stroke would better, 82 or 86? With 86 stroke is 110cc more displacement.

So far parts i have collected:

Scat 44mm (1 3/4") small flange merged exhaust.
A-1 2,5" stainless renn käfer cup exhaust
dual 48mm throttlebodies + megasquirt
Udo becker lightweigth lifters
94mm wiseco pistons
1.4 pauter rockers
82mm Bugpack crank
5.5" Scat rods

Now i have  also new DRD L7 heads, but i afraid that they wont be enough.

Soon on the shoppinglist will be 94mm LN engineering nicasilcylinders.
Too bad that they dont make them at 101.6mm for oxyboxer use etc.

Headchoice would be either DRD L7.5 or neighbour country made MS230 heads..leaning to the last one, but they are twice expensive than DRD heads.

Johannes recommended me a cam with those heads for street use, that has 282 degrees at 0.050" and lift with 1.4 rockers 0.589" or 14,98mm
Sounds like a lot of lift, but MS230 heads have good springs and 117mm long valves.

Case maybe CB alucase. Cooling shroud will be OEM, or brasilian OEM.
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BeetleBug
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« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2011, 08:25:32 am »

How about 245 reliable, go-everywhere HP from a 2386ccm engine? More precisly: 245hp at 7250 rpms and 268nm of torque.

VW Magnesium case
86 mm DPR crank/wedgemated
5,7 " Eagle rods
FK 89 cam
1,45 JPM five bolt rockers
JE JPM-spec pistons (make for a narrow engine that fits a early model)
MS 230 heads from JPM
Cima/Mahle cylinders
51,5 IDA from Jay Cee
2 qrt sump
30 mm oil pump
1 7/8" header (ceramic coated) with polished stainless 3" muffler from A1
Manton tapered pushrods / JayCee pushrodtubes
CR 10,7 = ordinary pump fuel
MSD distributor, coil and wires + MSD 6AL
KEP2 with Daikin superdisc

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/WJK5zlbvGtA" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/WJK5zlbvGtA</a>

This guy drives it everywhere!
« Last Edit: February 09, 2011, 08:56:45 am by BeetleBug » Logged

10.41 - 100ci - 1641ccm - 400hp
Dosey
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« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2011, 08:26:25 am »

UD ( Jeff Denham )  Wink
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-Alex-
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« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2011, 09:10:05 am »

Sounds very tempting Smiley It has about 15,3mm valvelift, wonder how valvetrain lasts with that much lift?

Originally i thought buying 86C cam, but it might be too"little" with MS230 heads and fuel injection Cheesy

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BeetleBug
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« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2011, 09:18:48 am »

Sounds very tempting Smiley It has about 15,3mm valvelift, wonder how valvetrain lasts with that much lift?

Originally i thought buying 86C cam, but it might be too"little" with MS230 heads and fuel injection Cheesy


It was built in 2007 and dyno`d this winter. Looks like it lasts doesn`t it? On top of the street miles it has been raced HARD at both BugRun and SCC.

Building a engine in 2011 without a JPM cam would be like drinking a good red wine in a water glas. You will get the wine down... and that`s about it.

BB

 
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Diederick/DVK
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« Reply #5 on: February 09, 2011, 09:28:26 am »

JPM has proven he is the man. It's just a shame I can't find much info on his products; cams, springs and such. the ms230 heads are outta my league  Wink
I know it has been said before to contact him personally, but I never got any response on my emails/PMs. And I'm not the only one. Btw I'm not throwing mud here, that's all. Smiley
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Diederick
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« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2011, 17:28:32 pm »



It was built in 2007 and dyno`d this winter. Looks like it lasts doesn`t it? On top of the street miles it has been raced HARD at both BugRun and SCC.

Building a engine in 2011 without a JPM cam would be like drinking a good red wine in a water glas. You will get the wine down... and that`s about it.

BB

 
[/quote]

TRUE!!!!!!!!
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Jeff68
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« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2011, 19:05:50 pm »

In my opinion, To make that kind of power and be reliable the reccomendations to go to JPM and UD are definitely on the right track.  If I had the $$$ I'd be very interested in a 4" bore engine.  I'd definitely check out the JPM parts and engine configurations as well. Jeff
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-Alex-
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« Reply #8 on: February 10, 2011, 08:01:57 am »

Too bad  that they dont make 101.6 nicasil cylinders yet Smiley
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BeetleBug
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« Reply #9 on: February 10, 2011, 08:14:42 am »

I have a hard time finding a reason why you should spend so much additional money on nicasil barrels. They will not give you a HP gain. A perfectly round barrel that allows you`re rings to seal will.
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-Alex-
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« Reply #10 on: February 10, 2011, 09:22:58 am »

Cooling of course, why did porsche used aluminum nicasil cylinders on all high performance engines Smiley
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BeetleBug
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« Reply #11 on: February 10, 2011, 09:58:40 am »

Cooling of course, why did porsche used aluminum nicasil cylinders on all high performance engines Smiley

Have you ever experienced cooling problems? I would actually go as far as to say that cooling is not a issue with our engines unless you do something wrong. Even more so when you do not live in a warm part of the world like Cali.

To put it to the extremes: Buggy, T4 engine - NO cooling fan, 5000 km on the street last season, two oil coolers (one of the front mounted) 8200 rpms - no cooling problems. And he drives his buggy HARD!

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/4FvdIroItbc" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/4FvdIroItbc</a>

Nicasils are a waste of money if you ask me but I`m sure a Porsche dealer would say the opposite.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2011, 10:07:11 am by BeetleBug » Logged

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« Reply #12 on: February 10, 2011, 10:00:54 am »

If you're that concerned with cooling I can't understand how you could consider another head than the MS 230 casting. With its machined "heat sink" its some 40% up on cooling compared with the STOCK design. This amount of machining will bring the price up but you can see what your paying for.
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-Alex-
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« Reply #13 on: February 10, 2011, 10:21:55 am »

Yes, MS230 cooling capabilities should be great due to 9 machined fins.  No cooling problems on a type 4 without cooling fan? Were there head temperature sensors and oil temp sensors? Wink
I think that nicasils arent waste of money, but wery expensive, and before i thought that too expensive. Hey, DRD sells also nicasil cylinders which are about half of the LN engineering product.
I have been thinking that it would wery nice if the engine would survive well on the highway drving 100-130 km/h and occasional 180km/h bursts Cheesy Trans is stock ratio SSC irs with quaife, so should not be a problem.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2011, 10:37:45 am by -Alex- » Logged

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BeetleBug
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« Reply #14 on: February 10, 2011, 10:39:57 am »

No cooling problems on a type 4 without cooling fan? Were there head temperature sensors and oil temp sensors? Wink

Yes - no problems: More info here in Norwegian if you still choose not to believe: http://www.vwnorge.no/index.php/topic,24475.0.html

ja , ja og atter ja jeg har bare oljekjøling og har hatt det i mange år nå selv om mange sikkert hadde håpet på at det ikke hadde virket i disse årene 200 runder i denne helgen på Våler i over 25 varmegrader den ene dagen med full gass og 8000 rpm + hadde sikkert tatt frem svakhetene i systemet,,,eller ?

=

Yes, yes and yes again. I only cool the oil and have been doing so for many years. A lot of you guys probably do not believe it but this weekend I did 200 laps around the Våler track with air temp above 25C. Full throttle and 8000 rpms+. I`m sure that if my cooling had any weaknesses it would have shown - or?

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-Alex-
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« Reply #15 on: February 10, 2011, 12:13:28 pm »

With that horsepower, should i have wedgemated crank / fywheel. clutch is KEP 2 with Copperhead disc. Just not a big fan of wedgemating. I have bugpack cromoly forged flywheel with that bugpack crank. Also what about flanged crank on a street use? Would there be any endplay problems?

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BeetleBug
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« Reply #16 on: February 10, 2011, 12:20:09 pm »

With that horsepower, should i have wedgemated crank / fywheel. clutch is KEP 2 with Copperhead disc. Just not a big fan of wedgemating. I have bugpack cromoly forged flywheel with that bugpack crank. Also what about flanged crank on a street use? Would there be any endplay problems?

Glad we solved the cooling issues and talked you away from wasting money on fancy, no important stuff.  Wink

Questions: are you going drag racing? If yes, are you going drag racing with slicks? If yes - I would have considered a flange or wedgemated crank but probably ended up using a ordinary crank/flywheel in combination with a clutch management system. You could also read the dowel thread here on The Lounge.

Best rgs
BB
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Udo
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« Reply #17 on: February 10, 2011, 12:57:42 pm »

With that horsepower, should i have wedgemated crank / fywheel. clutch is KEP 2 with Copperhead disc. Just not a big fan of wedgemating. I have bugpack cromoly forged flywheel with that bugpack crank. Also what about flanged crank on a street use? Would there be any endplay problems?



No flansh crank on the street . You can get problems even if you go dragracing with that cranks....
I would recommend dot tires and 8 long dowel pins. Also not bigger than 82 mm crank for street use with a stock case . If you want bigger use a water boxer case to be shure it works for a longer time . All this also depends on how fast you want to drive on the street

Udo
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Peter
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« Reply #18 on: February 10, 2011, 13:10:45 pm »

why is that so udo?

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Torben Alstrup
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« Reply #19 on: February 10, 2011, 13:20:24 pm »

Hello.
I guess it all boils down to what you want to do. With all due respect to the buggy guy with no cooling. - There is a difference to lumping around and do short special stages to WOT on a track or fast down the Autobahn for hours in a row in the back of a beetle. So its really comparing apples to oranges.

I will go as far as saying that Nikasils are not nearly as "needed" here in Scandinavia as most places especially in Southern USA and similar. On the other hand. I have had the priviledge to build 2 Mahle nikasil equipped engines. 1 1835 type 1 and 1 2230 type 4. Both are virtually impossible to overheat even at very high sustained loads, dont need much oil cooling, ( the 1835 resides in a 69 convertible, pulls 125 hp and is cool as a Breezer out of the ice box, with only stock late cooling) So yes, it helps tremendeusly to cooling.
Next thing. The larger the bore the higher the need. That alone says that the need on a type 1 engine is not that high. The big bore type 4 engines benefit a lot from nickies. We have seen 5 & 6 stud solutions to leaking problems, but the addition of Nickies and the correct heads stud solves the problem without all the fancy stuff.
Last thing. Overdimensioned oil coolers are merely a band aid to cover for another issue, and also a misunderstanding as to what cools what. Extra capacity oil cooling is nescessary when we run cast iron barrels and high power output, because of the fact that the iron barrels simply cannot dissapate the same amount of heat as Nickies can. That´s why we use the oil to help cool the engine down.

Speaking of JPM parts etc. A Raptor cam set up alone aids in the reduction of the oil temperature due to the reduction of friction alone and the lesser need for high spring tension. I have only one Raptor cammed engine out as of yet, (one is due in 2 weeks time and one more in 4 weeks time) but already now I can see/sense the difference in the way the engine builds power on the dyno.

T
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Torben Alstrup
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« Reply #20 on: February 10, 2011, 13:27:40 pm »

When you go larger than 82 mm you begin to weaken the case due to the fact that you make the material thin at some spots.
A WBX case is always good.
If I was to build that kind of street power, I would go for a crank with type 4 center main to make the crank as strong as possible.

I am not sure where Udo´s beef is with the flanged cranks on the street. But I´m sure he will tell us if we ask politely  Wink  -My hunch is that the thrust can create issues. Udo ?
T
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BeetleBug
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« Reply #21 on: February 10, 2011, 13:38:52 pm »

Thanks Torben,

I totally agree with the buggy.. it was just a example. I could also have used all the vw powered trikes which are mainly used on warm summer days and probably see a lot of street miles.

I do not question the extra cooling the alu/nicasil cylinders provid but I question if it is needed. I don`t think so. Also, have you seen a nicasil cylinder after a season in one of our engines? I have and they did not look good. And yes, he used airfilters. 

Interesting thread. Looking forward to the build  Smiley
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BeetleBug
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« Reply #22 on: February 10, 2011, 14:19:15 pm »

And one more thing;

If you still worry about cooling why not use E85. The positive effects overshines the few downsides.

BB
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-Alex-
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« Reply #23 on: February 10, 2011, 14:48:10 pm »

Interesting answers Smiley  I have been favoring 82 stroke many times and have used vw bearing sized journals with them, mainly because it has biggest diameter. Just collecting the parts, might be that it takes to the next spring  to get the engine assembled. Car is getting painted, rollgaged, new big brakes etc. Case will be original or CB alucase, but i have had alucase before and i didn't like quality then.

Yes, a littlebit dragracing, but not with sticky slicks. Long dowels then, still don't like wedgemating, DOT tires are okay for me. Gotta have somewhere fuse. Are dragradials okay? Too bad  that i need 16" to back, or possibly 944 spacesaver rims can have 15" radials due to a brakes.  I have oem hard rubber mounts and berg trans midmount. Also have made few good copies from it, lasercut parts etc Wink 3 bar kafer brace is also considered.
 
Dowell thread - i'll check that .

Only few cars here in finland run E85, far as i know.  I have no E85 near here, only big cities at south.
I have considered WBX case before, best things are that is has through bolts, it's diecast(?), and oilcapacity is bigger. But more work than type 1 based case. So far i know that it might need offset casesavers for type 1 heads, bushings(?) for type 1 lifters and no doghouse oilcooler.

« Last Edit: February 10, 2011, 15:13:53 pm by -Alex- » Logged

While Cal-Look stands still, looking backwards for inspiration, German Look keeps pushing boundaries further forward Cheesy
Stripped66
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« Reply #24 on: February 10, 2011, 16:30:26 pm »

The positive effects overshines the few downsides.

Abundant E85, miles of roadways in super light vehicles that put no load on the engine, and ambient temps that don't require cooling fans is utopia.


I have no E85 near here, only big cities at south.
Reality, however, is the toughest part about building somebody else's virtual engine. Alex appears to be well-grounded in the reality of the challenges associated with sustained high-output driving with the Type 1, which includes, to a large extent, heat soak and the engine's cooling capacity.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2011, 16:32:25 pm by Stripped66 » Logged
Udo
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« Reply #25 on: February 10, 2011, 19:18:55 pm »

why is that so udo?



Todays cranks will flex like hell . If you have an old crank like Berg with porsche rod diameter or okrasa with vw rods it is no problem . Nothing to say against Bugpack cranks , they work well up to 82 mm with vw rods on the street
This is a nice video - split window on german autobahn up to 130 miles  Wink
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/Rkm3xLkhs2s" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/Rkm3xLkhs2s</a>

Udo
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Udo
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« Reply #26 on: February 10, 2011, 19:24:44 pm »

Thanks Torben,

I totally agree with the buggy.. it was just a example. I could also have used all the vw powered trikes which are mainly used on warm summer days and probably see a lot of street miles.

I do not question the extra cooling the alu/nicasil cylinders provid but I question if it is needed. I don`t think so. Also, have you seen a nicasil cylinder after a season in one of our engines? I have and they did not look good. And yes, he used airfilters. 

Interesting thread. Looking forward to the build  Smiley

May be the buggy does not overheat because of your cold weather in Norway  Wink

Udo
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-Alex-
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« Reply #27 on: February 10, 2011, 20:26:58 pm »

Nice video, that watercooled car owner must surprised - even try to keep up with bug's speed Cheesy

Seems that most buggys don't have full cooling tin, because there is no sealed compartment to use all tinware effectively, and buggys are wery light and air is flowing maybe better around the engine than on a sedan.
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While Cal-Look stands still, looking backwards for inspiration, German Look keeps pushing boundaries further forward Cheesy
Jim Ratto
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« Reply #28 on: February 10, 2011, 21:42:23 pm »

why is that so udo?



Todays cranks will flex like hell . If you have an old crank like Berg with porsche rod diameter or okrasa with vw rods it is no problem . Nothing to say against Bugpack cranks , they work well up to 82 mm with vw rods on the street
This is a nice video - split window on german autobahn up to 130 miles  Wink
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/Rkm3xLkhs2s" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/Rkm3xLkhs2s</a>

Udo

 Grin

awesome
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DER KLEINER PANZERS

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Zach Gomulka
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« Reply #29 on: February 10, 2011, 22:22:03 pm »

^^^Who's this Jim Ratto guy anyway??^^^

 Grin Wink
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