EFI OXY-stroker, LONG time project

[Erlend / bug66]

Hi all

I just started this thread in the Norwegian VW-forum, but since SCC is just around the corner and I can't think about anything constructive I will duplicate it here.

I also think I'll be able to get advices from more people here.

Spec list so far:

Block:                  Modified WBX case. Code is DJ. headbolts will be moved and it will get bushings for T1 lifters.
Crank:                  DPR cw and with 84mm stroke.
Flywheel:              DPR T1 with T4/WBX senter
Rods:                   5,4" CB Superrace H-beam
Pistons:                94mm Wiseco
Cylinders:              94mm Mahle
Camshaft:             JPM00406, 282 degrees of duration and 10,7mm lift at cam
Rockers:               1,4
Heads:                  CB Comp Eliminator, 48/40 valves w/Oteva springs from JPM
Pushrods:              JPM dual tapered alu
CR:                       12-1
Inlet manifold:        CB short CE
TB's:                     Jenvey 48/50mm IDA style
Ignition:                 Crank trigger
Fuel:                     E85


The mecanichs of building an engine should turn out easy(ish) But EFI and cranktrigger will be a headscratcher for me.



My current 1915 made almost 100hp pr liter. So hopefully this will make more hp pr liter. Also I would like some more torque


Would DTA S60 Pro suit my specs?




Started on plugging the oil galleries:
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You can still see markings on the crank bases in the enginge case.
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Nice huh?
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Anyone know a size plug I can use here? It's not the same as in a T1 case.
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[karl h]

nice engine, but why not take advantage og the wbx case and use a 4" bore or at least 96mm in a type 4 cylinder?

[Frallan]

DTA S60, BIG thumb up.
I have had 2 X Motec, CB Quick tune, DTA EXP 48 since 2000 and now recently the upgrade to S60. Very good stuff.

[Erlend / bug66]

nice engine, but why not take advantage og the wbx case and use a 4" bore or at least 96mm in a type 4 cylinder?

I'm not to keen on building a 4" motor. Mainly because I'm only having 4 studs per cylinder, and I'm a little worried that the heads won't seal that good. Next 94's has much more parts available. It will be more expensive! And at last, if I change my mind and put a hairdryer on it, I won't need the the extra cubic. But... 4" and a 69mm crank and 10.000rpm would be funny.

[Airspeed]

DTA S60, BIG thumb up.
I have had 2 X Motec, CB Quick tune, DTA EXP 48 since 2000 and now recently the upgrade to S60. Very good stuff.

+1
I also run DTA S60 and still love it. Especially the closed loop fuelling and datalogging functions are excellent.

[Frallan]

DTA S60, BIG thumb up.
I have had 2 X Motec, CB Quick tune, DTA EXP 48 since 2000 and now recently the upgrade to S60. Very good stuff.

+1
I also run DTA S60 and still love it. Especially the closed loop fuelling and datalogging functions are excellent.

Just posted on another thread that is it not amazing what we can buy today?  Not so many years ago this was F1 technology and today in our hands as happy amateurs!

[RMS Boxer Service]

nice engine, but why not take advantage og the wbx case and use a 4" bore or at least 96mm in a type 4 cylinder?

I'm not to keen on building a 4" motor. Mainly because I'm only having 4 studs per cylinder, and I'm a little worried that the heads won't seal that good. Next 94's has much more parts available. It will be more expensive! And at last, if I change my mind and put a hairdryer on it, I won't need the the extra cubic. But... 4" and a 69mm crank and 10.000rpm would be funny.

If you go normally aspirated or turboed with sane boost level, dont worry about leaking cylinders.
Just make sure the mating surfaces are good on both cylinders and heads. Good quality head studs
are also needed. 1200cc stock GERMAN 10 mm studs are fine and cheap I have used that on a high
powered oxyboxer engine with great succes. The 1200 studs are shorter than 13/1600 cc studs and
fit the wider case of a WBX/oxy much better. 


/Rolf

RMS Boxer Service

[Erlend / bug66]

Nah.. What the hell..


LEt's turbo it! 

[Trond Dahl]

Nah.. What the hell..

LEt's turbo it! 

[Erlend / bug66]

this looks good:

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[Fasterbrit]

That's a nice, clean street turbo install! 👍

[Erlend / bug66]

Yes. Exactly

No cutting, no nothing!


I need to ask the owner of that car there ^ if the intercooler is used as it was bought.


my guess is that I can use this: http://www.siliconeintakes.com/product_info.php?cPath=7&products_id=213&osCsid=4ac31ddeff914f4c19b1b37990f269fd without cutting in the car. Just with some fabrication of the pipes.

[BeetleBug]

Plenty of pixs and info about the beautiful oval here: http://ultimateaircooled.com/simplemachinesforum/index.php/topic,6089.30.html  I believe he dyno'ed 325 hp at 17 psi. Maybe Shag 55 will chime in and tell you more about the specs.

-BB-

[Erlend / bug66]

What should I run between the turbo and the throttle body? A regular BOV or a diverter valve? I have a diverter valve from a setup I bought, but don't know if that is the thing I should run.

Am I right when a diverter valve closes when the pressure builds?

I think I want the safety of a valve that drops pressure at say 2 bar 

[Erlend / bug66]

After some difficulties getting the block modified and getting it back to me, I've hade some time to think.

I've ordered some parts, planned some, made some templates for an intercooler and basically almost got the list ready.

Hold on to your hats 


- DJ WBX-case modified to aircooled, with moved headstuds and sleeved lifterbores.
- 84mm DPR crank (not desided vw or chevy rods)
- 5,4 or 5,5# CB H-beam rods
- Wisecos and Mahle liners (maybe powersleeved)
- JPM cam kit, my guess is around 250degrees at 0,05" lift, with 112LC. Around 10-10,5mm lift on the cam
- Dual taper JPM pushrods
- 044 miniwedge heads (I want som airspeed through the heads as well)
- CR around 8-1
- Skinne-turbo, custom build.
- CB under apron exhaust.
- 2,5" pressure tubing
- barrel style air to water intercooler, with a watertank in the front of the car
- 57mm TB
- T-piece that reduces the tubing to 2"
- CB injection end castings.

- DTA S60 ECU (and everything else I need from vwspeedshop  )
- E85
- 2 bars of pressure


I think..

Any suggestions? Something I need to change? I know Kalle will say my liners won't keep up 



I think it will be a fun engine, and I love my IDA powered 1915cc. The little thing can make me giggle in a heartbeat, so what can a turbo engine do to my face? 

[richie]

After some difficulties getting the block modified and getting it back to me, I've hade some time to think.

I've ordered some parts, planned some, made some templates for an intercooler and basically almost got the list ready.

Hold on to your hats 


- DJ WBX-case modified to aircooled, with moved headstuds and sleeved lifterbores.
- 84mm DPR crank (not desided vw or chevy rods)
- 5,4 or 5,5# CB H-beam rods
- Wisecos and Mahle liners (maybe powersleeved)
- JPM cam kit, my guess is around 250degrees at 0,05" lift, with 112LC. Around 10-10,5mm lift on the cam
- Dual taper JPM pushrods
- 044 miniwedge heads (I want som airspeed through the heads as well)
- CR around 8-1
- Skinne-turbo, custom build.
- CB under apron exhaust.
- 2,5" pressure tubing
- barrel style air to water intercooler, with a watertank in the front of the car
- 57mm TB
- T-piece that reduces the tubing to 2"
- CB injection end castings.

- DTA S60 ECU (and everything else I need from vwspeedshop  )
- E85
- 2 bars of pressure


I think..

Any suggestions? Something I need to change? I know Kalle will say my liners won't keep up 



I think it will be a fun engine, and I love my IDA powered 1915cc. The little thing can make me giggle in a heartbeat, so what can a turbo engine do to my face? 

My thoughts

chevy rod journals
big bolt rods[cb are 5/16,I would use 3/8]
I had no problem with mahle cylinders,the only time I split one was when i got the tune wrong,they dont need fancy tricks if you get the set up good
with E85 a little more compression,8.8-9/1 would be my choice
and I wouldn't use that barrell intercooler,I havent seen one yet that reduces intake temps well enough to be worth all the cost

It will be fun for sure


cheers richie

[Erlend / bug66]

Thanks for you reply Richie!

Regarding intercooler. I really do not want to cut the firewall to route the air to a larger IC. I was thinking of using a larger, square IC behind the shroud, but I do not know right know how big I've got room for. Don't you think an intercooler would help? Regardless of size? I could easily change water when it gets too warm. Gardermoen have cold water on tap 

Looking at CB's website, I can see that the miniwedge heads have 65cc chambers. With 1,2mm deck height, I'll get 8,9-1. Guess the chanmbers won't need redoing.


Nice to know I can use Mahle liners. They match pretty good in size with the Wisecos I have.

I can't find 5,4" Chevy journals anywhere.. Do they exist or do I need to use 5,5? Or maybe my internet searching capabilities are really not up do date 

[richie]

Pauter or carrillo are proberly the only places to get a 5.4 chevy journal rod,there are 5.325 available from cb or scat but i think a 5.5 or 5.6 would work well with the 84mm stroke crank anyway
As for the intercooler,I think the only way you can do what you are asking is with a custom set up,a water injection kit would give better results than the barrell intercooler, soem sort of intake cooling will help for sure,but E85 gives you a good starting point with its cooling effect,Trond doesnt have an intercooler on his oval does he?

cheers richie

 

[Erlend / bug66]

Nope. Trond don't have a cooler at the moment, but I think he has got some high temperatures aswell.. Of the top of my mind, so not 100% on that one.

I'll see what I'll make of it. I know I can make a IC fit in the engine bay, but it is going to be tight

[Trond Dahl]

I'm currently running without and it works Ok, but for highway use and flooring(boost over time) it raises the temps too high.
I am adding a square type Watercooled IC this spring, but #1 priority is to fix the damages from the crash.
I'm not religious about making a couple of holes in an already not 100% stock car... :-)
It's mine and I will enjoy the best way I can :-) Thats what it's all about anyways

[BeetleBug]

It only works "ok" due to the fact that Trond and me is using E85 in combination with how we compensate for the temp climb. You will of course loose HP no matter what when the temp rises but for a 1/4" mile run it is not a problem with the boost levels were playing around with. I read somewhere that E85 is ok up to 185C or 365F but I have never been close to that temperature so I can't confirm that statement.

I like your spec list and my only recommendation is that you spec your engine according to your HP goal. If you believe 94mm Mahles can handle 100hp pr barrel then no problem.

From Risør winter wonder land

-BB-

[richie]

It only works "ok" due to the fact that Trond and me is using E85 in combination with how we compensate for the temp climb. You will of course loose HP no matter what when the temp rises but for a 1/4" mile run it is not a problem with the boost levels were playing around with. I read somewhere that E85 is ok up to 185C or 365F but I have never been close to that temperature so I can't confirm that statement.

I like your spec list and my only recommendation is that you spec your engine according to your HP goal. If you believe 94mm Mahles can handle 100hp pr barrel then no problem.

From Risør winter wonder land

-BB-

Agreed,the E85 is the deciding factor, out of interest where do you both[Trond?] measure intake temperature? before or after the injector? as most I have seen are before and i have been wondering about how much it drops after using the cooling effect of the fuel,after all this is half the benifit of E85 right?
Trond what do you consider is "too high"  If you measure in the intake before the valve then surely that is the same as measuring before the intercooler,your not getting actual temp going into the chmaber


And on the subject of cylinders,what do you see as a good replacement for the regular cast mahle etc cylinders? given this is for street use and cooling is important what else is there out there that has as much or more cooling area? I cant think of anything right now and that maybe is the big problem on a street "race car"   We want the best of both worlds and its very difficult to achieve


cheers richie

[Erlend / bug66]

Do not think I can meassure temp after the injectors.

The main reason I want to use a barrel style intercooler is because the pressure piping will have few bends, and airflow will therefore be alot better than routing the air around the shroud for example.

Any tips on wastegate and BOV manufacturer?


I will move the wastegate to the collector, and try to have it in the direction of the flow.

[BeetleBug]

And on the subject of cylinders,what do you see as a good replacement for the regular cast mahle etc cylinders? given this is for street use and cooling is important what else is there out there that has as much or more cooling area? I cant think of anything right now and that maybe is the big problem on a street "race car"   We want the best of both worlds and its very difficult to achieve

cheers richie

It is possible to calculate the max cylinder pressure and also X-ray and stress test the cylinders to find if they will be OK for the job. Take a look at Roar old homepage (nitrousbeetle.com) where he posted pictures of this process. With regards to 94mm barrels I'm not sure which ones are the best out there that will work on the street; REV? JPM? Mahle? When a set varies from $199 to $1999 I would pressume that you will find that the quality will vary. What set would you consider is the best out there?

My intake temp sensor is placed before the injectors and it would have been interesting to have one more after the injectors to check the difference but now I'm going intercooled and will fit a sensor before and after the cooler instead.

Have a nice day!

From Moose country

-BB-

[richie]

I had forgotten about Roar's tests,he was very thorough    For me I havent seen any real difference in revmaster,bugpack,mahle or AA cast cylinders,they will all split if the tune is wrong,I have no experience of what Johannes offers so cant comment on them, I am really happy with the Pauter steel sleeve with fins machined in,but again if you get it wrong the problem just moves to the next weakest point,usually burning the head/heads,as 2 bar is not very realistic on the street the time it will be at high boost is tiny,it all comes down to what each person expects a street car to do,but we have had that conversation before I think

I have seen a set up where they put  EGT probes in the intake before & after the injector to measure intake temp,that would be good info to have.Turbosmart or Tial make good products that i have experienced

Enjoy the snow,we both know Moose are just a myth  We have the boat crew here this weekend,they all say Hi

cheers richie

[Basti]

I have seen a set up where they put  EGT probes in the intake before & after the injector to measure intake temp,that would be good info to have.Turbosmart or Tial make good products that i have experienced

cheers richie

Hi Richie,
I would not use EGT probes to meassure the intake temp. They have a range up to 1200°C which shows no exact values >100°C.

Cheers,
Basti

[richie]

Hi basti,

i am not 100% sure what you mean,but mine start at 100F so wont measure below that,then go up in increments of 1f so 101,102,103,104 etc,there must be a similar probe that will measure say 0-400f accuately enough I would think on boost that non intecooled would be over 100f though even after the injector,what I suggested was only a way to see difference in temp from before to after the injector

cheers richie   

[Erlend / bug66]

Long time no see

Buried at work, and a car+NA engine that needs to be done before the season.

I talked to Johannes about a cam, and he suggested a custom grind cam for me. 266deg at 0,005" lift with 10,38mm lift at the cam. 113LC. I think it will be a good choice, and I am fairly confident I'll get over 400hp out of the lump of aluminium.