The future of our hobby and Youth

[Russell]

The folloing is a quote from Zach on the VWoA topic

Slightly off topic, but whatever. I'm concerned about the future of this hobby. I'm betting that most of us got started when we were in our impressionable teens or twenties. When I was in high school (15ish years ago) there were countless ACVW's in the parking lot. And most were either lowered, had a set of wheels, or a hot motor, etc. Nowaday's, there MIGHT be ONE in your average high school parking lot. Back then (and prior) VW's were still cheap transportation, something that a kid making minimum wage could afford to buy and keep up. And have a lot of fun with his buddies in! Now in 2012? Fucking forget it! Decent project cars at an affordable price are few and far between, and the prices for quality parts are WAY up there. These days you're smarter to steer your high schooler towards a beater 25 year old Honda than a old VW. It's become a hobby for older guys who want to relive their youth and have a few bucks to throw around. New blood? I see very, very little of it. I feel lucky to be part of what I see as the last generation of kids to really enjoy old VW's for what they were.

So this is Zach take on our hobbies future, whats yours

Mine is:

In the old days 20-30 years ago people collect old shit 1920s-1940s cars and some british MG/Truimph crap, however nowadays the new 40 somethings like Fords, VWs, etc and the youth 20 somethings like Far Eastern rockets...... however this is judging a book by its cover. I think there will be more youth get into ACVWs "Beetles" if they are available, our cars always turn heads and in my opinion are a lot cheaper than buying a pocket rocket that will lose money daily, cost a fortune in tyres and turbos.

On Samba there is no end of 60s bugs in the states for between $3000-$6000 USD, these are rock solid rust free cars, give them a paint, a service and a new interior another $6000 and you have spent $10-12k, guess what next year and the year after it will still be worth $10-12k, if you buy the pocket rocket for $12k next year it will be worth less no doubt. with over 22million made we konw they are out there so you can get one easily, yes there is the high end restos but not everyone need 2232cc motor, BRMS, show paint job etc. Some people just like a beetle with its 1200/1300 or 1500 engine cheap and reliable.

in Europe our fuel "Gas" costs us far more than the US (3 times more in some places) and our goverments try and tax us or offer buy backs to get rid of 20 year old beaters, however the Beetles are eithie Historic or Oldtimers and in the UK we dont pay Road Tax if the car was build before 1972 and no safety inspection before 1960 (not something i agree with but its a fact) and on old beetle the insurance is cheaper than on a Pocket Rocket.....

But the most important thing is, you can do it yourself, in your garage, shed or garden and you dont need a degree in electronics or a lapstop to tune it, a simple timing light and a good ear does the job.

The biggest fear for our hobby again in my opinion is the so called specialists that rip people off doing shit jobs and charge to much, this will put people off, over the last few years they type 2 scene has totaly scaled up and there are so many resto guys willing to turn your rusty old bus into something special, but in a lot of cases it just cover ups, this happened in the 80s/90s with beetle in the UK but as the cars are not as Trendy anymore there is less cowboys doing them.

Whats your views ?

[benlawrence]

When i started out, bugs and bus's were plentiful, at cheap money, flip on 20 years, i can go a whole month without seeing one on the road, aircooled vw's will be for the hardcore kids, not because its cool, and most certainly not because its affordable, maybe they love them, maybe they grew up with them, they must have a real desire to roll one, v's the cost of buying a cheap hack from any marque, slam it and put rims on, job done, then a £3000 beetle does not represent daily value for money. I certainly wouldnt go out and buy one if i was 18 now i would want an economical box that started heated and does all the things a modern car does, most kids cant afford 3k minimum for a solid bug let alone insurance etc, a daily driver cheap hack and a resto in the garage maybe. I could be wrong, times have moved on.

I still have memories of having to park my old 64 on the only slope in the car park so i could bump start it every morning at 3am after working in the bar, gloves 3 layers and an ice scraper were mandatory, lol but we all did it.

[Speed-Randy]

While my daughter loves her Ghia, and yes, wherever she goes in it, at least 3 people comment on how cool it is, while her friends never hear this about their hondas. Most of them can't comprehend a manual transmission, nor do they know which end of a screwdriver to hold. I blame this mostly on the Volvo generation, where the safety word rules. Everyone of her friends parents say the same thing to me," I can't believe you let her drive that car, no airbags, it's not very safe!" my reply is always the same. " I grew up driving them, my friends and I all seem to have survived" .
Plus they don't look very cool with a big gay ass wing on the back!! 

[OldSpeed]

In the UK things have really changed over the last 5 years IMHO.

When I needed a first car that was a classic, cheap to insure and reasonably reliable I went for a Beetle in 2006 at the age of 15 in preparation for my 17th Birthday. The car cost £350 and was on the road for under a grand.

The first Beetle was replaced by an unfinished project that just needed reassembly and that owes me only £1500 or so and is a good solid Beetle.

If I look in most classifieds now, you won't get any change out of £2000-3000 for a good running example. Any decent early car seems to be £4-10k.

It's a case of supply and demand but I reckon young people are being priced out of the scene. Parts have got significantly more expensive too and classic insurance for 17/18 y/o is becoming increasingly difficult to obtain.

Also, at 21 my Beetle feels a bit childish to me these days. Most of my friends are too scared or perhaps embarrassed to ride in it! I am losing the love too and am sick of the 'scene tax' so my car is up for sale and I'm off to try something new after having owned a Beetle for my whole driving life. 

[AntLockyer]

It just looks like the hot rod scene/hobby to me. There aren't many 17 year olds involved because stuff is either expensive, hard to get hold of, a bunch of crap or all of the above. That scene is doing OK for it and I'm sure the VW one will.

[j-f]

As I'm 30 year's old, I still consider myself young 

I bought my bug when I was 22, bought another one as a project 2 or 3 years later, then a Bay window and another one 3 years ago and even a T3/t25/vanagon Westfalia (Best deal so far  )...  . Some where good deal, other not that much. I'm working on them as much as I can. Sometimes more, sometime less. But I still have lot's of motivation to complete them.

Bugs and Bus still have a huge cool factor. You can't watch TV without seeing them on a ad's or in a movie. Take a look in stores, they are lot's of gifts or deco items that are bugs or bus shaped. VW release the new beetle that helps to keep the old beetle in everybody's mind.
But the economic crisis has been there... Property costs, cost of rents, gas, fioul, everything cost more than a few years ago. And economic forecasting are not good. People don't have a lot's of money to spend or prefer keep it rather than invest it in a old fun car.
Each time I drive my bug, I get comments from onlookers or friends who would just love to get one. But they all say that they just don't have money to spend to buy even a 2.000€ stock 70's beetle. 2.000€ is about what cost to heat a house during cold months over here.

I think that's our hobby still have future and they are still young people that want to get involve in it, but in this though times, people prefer keep their money.

[Martin Greaves]

In the UK things have really changed over the last 5 years IMHO.

When I needed a first car that was a classic, cheap to insure and reasonably reliable I went for a Beetle in 2006 at the age of 15 in preparation for my 17th Birthday. The car cost £350 and was on the road for under a grand.

The first Beetle was replaced by an unfinished project that just needed reassembly and that owes me only £1500 or so and is a good solid Beetle.

If I look in most classifieds now, you won't get any change out of £2000-3000 for a good running example. Any decent early car seems to be £4-10k.



It's a case of supply and demand but I reckon young people are being priced out of the scene. Parts have got significantly more expensive too and classic insurance for 17/18 y/o is becoming increasingly difficult to obtain.

Also, at 21 my Beetle feels a bit childish to me these days. Most of my friends are too scared or perhaps embarrassed to ride in it! I am losing the love too and am sick of the 'scene tax' so my car is up for sale and I'm off to try something new after having owned a Beetle for my whole driving life. 

Hey trust me you bug is not childish. It would be sad if you sold your bug keep with it. It's the people you meet along the way in this sence as well as the cars. We all have our up's and down's. But you can't beat a good drive out in your bug to put that smile on your face.

[Black Sheep]

Hey trust me you bug is not childish. It would be sad if you sold your bug keep with it. It's the people you meet along the way in this sence as well as the cars. We all have our up's and down's. But you can't beat a good drive out in your bug to put that smile on your face.

or in your case stealing mine for a quick drive   

[Martin Greaves]

No been down the beach today in the white bug.

Dam cold.

[leec]

No been down the beach today in the white bug.

Dam cold.

Put some clothes on then, don't just wear your speedo's

[70slooker]

well, when i read zachs post in the other thread i totally knew what he was saying, im 29 and like zach feel that i got in at the last min i do see the young people at the shows the odd one posting looking for a part here or there, but after the "thrill" has gone so have they. my high school car was beyond a beater and that left a bad taste in my mouth for chevrolets ive never enjoyed driving any of them since that rusted stupid broken down car, and if the new guys comming into our little hobby can only afford to "slam" a rusted up car and deal with the rattles, popping outta second always, that pushrod tube that wont stop leaking i bet that could leave a fella feeling kinda down and out, the younger then me crowd grew up with reliable cars, they never have the exposure to wrenches and grease, its kinda like  sending a so-cal resident to the artic its a world that you dont know or understand, if a kid cant figure out how to use a impact gun they will never be able to install fender beading!!

[rick m]

I guess I am one of the fortunate first generation VW guys.  Have been buying, building and enjoying them since late 69/70.  Will own them till I cannot drive any more. My daughter Shanna, is a 2nd generation VW nut. She has a new VW water cooled coupe, but also has her nice 65 bug and will own it forever too.  I guess the degree that we were involved has something to do with another generation following in our footsteps.  It is a love affair/passion for those of us who started when VW's were in their heyday.

I actually started out in a Chevy and moved to VWs because they were just so cool to fix up. Hey...parts were no cheaper in the 70's.  Everything is relative. When you were making $5 an hour and cranks were at least $150....everything is relative.  I guess it all comes down to how much we get passsionate about the cars we like.

Rick M

[deano]

Okay, I won't lay into the VoA mob (as much as I would like!), but I would have to say I give thanks to my dad who allowed me to have 1/2 of the garage, 1/2 of the workbench, and showed me which end of a screwdriver to use. He put up with my VW crap for years, and never told me to stop (well, other than the tickets and that one pesky arrest...). All he said was that I better not wind up working in a gas station for the rest of my life as a "greasemoneky"....

[Jim Ratto]

As far as the future of hot rod VW's and today's youth....my kids at 4 and 2 are already deep, deep into the "hobby", show my 4 year old an IDF and an IDA, and hands down, he know one from the other, and more importantly, which ones dad's car runs. Knows and likes the smell of race fuel. Knows an 010 from an MSD, helped me "count degrees" whilst degreeing/plotting a Pauter R6E8 cam. Not just VW stuff either, knows why engine is sideways and in middle of Miura, why the Boxer Ferraris have raised airboxes on rear deck. History of the Alfa Romeo emblem. Ask my son Lucas.
Anyway, more on topic... if we introduce first the golden history of hot rodding VW's and those behind its success (DKP 1 guys, FAT, Berg, Vittone, Lowry etc) and the virtues of maintaining and preserving that legacy, then the automotive "misfits" will proudly take note and carry on for all of us. All it takes is for them to see a superfast street car in anger. I'm still spellbound from the first smokeshow I saw in a grocery store parking lot at then tender age of 15 when a schoolmate sent the ass end of his yellow looker sideways. First time I went for a V8 kill ride, never forget. Why else would I still be doing this after 27 years?

[AntLockyer]

As far as the future of hot rod VW's and today's youth....my kids at 4 and 2 are already deep, deep into the "hobby",

Well that is a good point. My daughter knows what rust looks like

[andy198712]

i'm 24 and had my bug two years, first aircooled so i'm "new Gen" of owners i guess?

my thoughts?

honestly, its semi constant maintance, expensive in fuel compared to modern TDI's.

BUT There alot easier to work on and fix, yes they are getting old you get alot more age related fault, but i enjoy fixing them.

i think that yes prices will raise and aftermarket stuff will get worse (which is anouying) but there will always be some people who think it is worth the effort and expense

and its a car like no other, i see about one other beetle a month in cornwall..... ish i drive mine all year daily and love it

[Jeff68]

I have a daughter who is 9 and a son who is almost 12.  I put them in my car when they were two years old (I have pictures to prove it!) They have always loved just sitting in it as much as riding in it. I have brought them to VW meets and shows in it, drove them to and picked them up from school in it. They get a kick out of the attention the car gets and telling their friends about it. I occasionally ask them if they would like a VW (air cooled) when they get older. Sometimes they say yes and sometimes they're indifferent so it's hard to tell if they'll want one when they can drive. Once thing I can say is that my son plays the car racing video games now and is very aware of the exotic cars, how much power they have, how fast they are etc....He seems to be more interested in the exotic sports cars now and asks me about them often. I tell him that those are amazing cars but that there is a lot to be said for a machine that you can afford, fix, modify, and drive and take care of yourself. He understands but peer pressure tells him you should want an exotic car capable of more than 150 mph.  We'll see what happens.
We all know that Having a nice Hot air cooled VW is not cheap and easy. In Florida where I live everybody wants air conditioning in their car. There are a lot of enthusiasts in Florida but not many Cal-Look type cars. WHen I talk to people that ask me about my car and I tell them what I put in to it, how I did it and how fun it is some get interested but many like the new Mustangs and Camaros and some the tuner / drift cars here. I see much more of the latter here in Florida. I think the main thing that makes the younger / new generation disinterested in our cars is that it's not cheap and easy to find and get a nice example and then you have to spend a considerable amount of time and money to build, drive and maintain one. They'd rather take the path of least resistance and  just make payments and buy a Mustang or Camaro and go somewhat fast in air conditioned comfort right away. Just my $0.02...

[Flow]

Hello guys, don't worry about the future, there will always be some young people who will fall in love with beetles and well treat them. I am 22, owner of a beetle since 3 years, and we are a bunch of friends, from 21 to 34, all cal look addicts. The youth doesn't forget the good values 
 It may not be everyday easy to deal with this passion but idiots and high prices are everywhere... The beetle is nearly 70 years old and and have a lot of year to live 

[bugnut68]

I think there will always be people keeping the VW love alive.  No question.
It truly is an eccentric group, though.  The performance end/Cal Look/drag racing is a particularly tough group, as you have to be really dedicated to make these cars go fast.  Mechanical aptitude and desire to fix things, be it leaks or broken transaxles or blown engines, is a must, as that's the nature of the beast.   
The reality is the younger generation knows it's much easier and more effective to go fast either with American muscle or with modern technology in the modern import/sport compact realm, and that's just the long and short of it. People may dog on Hondas and other imports with "gay ass wings" as previously phrased, but I'd wager one could go 13's in an engine-swapped CRX or a mildly tuned Subaru STI a lot easier and cheaper than an air-cooled VW; it's simply a matter of what one's preferred platform is. 
The VW crowd does what it does because it truly loves the cars and building its performance, not because the achievements are particularly easy, reliable or cheap, because they are not; not compared to other platforms.
It's like with any old cars; the market shrinks, the prices go up accordingly.  In some cases, to ludicrous amounts (i.e., the current state of the split-window Bus market). 
American iron went through the roof in the mid '90s or so when stockbrokers and lawyers began preparing for retirement and wanted to have the car they couldn't afford in their youth, and now had ass loads of disposable income to throw around, whether the cars were worth it or not; and it continues today. Just take a look at the morons blowing billfolds at Barrett Jackson auctions.  I LOL'd at the $198,000 23-window bus buyer, and still do.
Someone else made an excellent point regarding former cheap parts days; wages were also much lower back in those days, too, so it all goes hand in hand, and that's another factor.
The more years go on, the pricier it will get to restore/build/race/enjoy these cars, that's just the nature of vintage cars.

[Stefan Rossi]

Hi, Im 24, I've loved fast VW's since I aw an old pic on one of my dads friends walls of a beetle pulling a wheelie next to an old mustang. (anybody know where i can get this picture!?)

I've owned my 67 beetle since I was 16. I built my first engine, a 1641, 110 cam ect when I was 15.

I still own that beetle which I have fully nut and bolt restored and it now has a 2276 and I've raced it into the 13's in England and in Belgium. Now I'm adding a turbo, a pro drag box and pursuing my 10 second street car dream...

I have 5 friends all around the same age as me, a couple are younger and a couple are older, they however all love slammed OG paint cars, slightly boring to me as you cant have fun doing burnouts or racing at shows, they simply park them up and leave them in one spot all weekend... Altho I must admit some do look cool!

One of my friends is 27 and we just picked up a 63 for him, I'm restoring it and getting it painted the original anthracite grey and it will have a big motor in it too.

However, when I was at "high school" in England. EVERYONE in my year, including one who now has a beetle and loves them, just slated me for having "hitlers car" and all the Jap car lovers abused me saying it will never be fast and they are all rusty pieces of S*!T... Im glad i ignored them!

I have received a lot of help from people off here over the last couple of years for various problems I've had and stuff I've been new too and I really appreciate it the knowledge and experience some of you have.

I've worked in VW shops in England and across the pond and ive seen some SHOCKING work at some of them, not all of them, just some of them.

So since seeing all this and having a good wedge of experience under my belt. Ive set up my own business rebuilding aircooled engines and I also cover everything else from servicing to fabrication. BUT, I feel, altho I'm a new business, that people will just over look me (because I'm young) and go to the businesses that are already established and have been for the last 20 years or so. I thought about this the other day, some of the ones I know will be close to retirement soon and some of the other ones I know are slowly stopping their work load to move on to other things or move away. So what happens then? From my generation anyway, I honestly don't know anyone out there that will still be around fixing VW's when even I'm 50? Let alone how old some of you guys will be by then (no offence you know what I mean  )

Stef

[dannyboy]

i thought you were at least 40 steff

[iowa mark]

Rather than worrying about another generation coming up to carry on the air cooled hobby, I look to the future of transportation itself. We may be some of the last to have the freedom to alter the cars we are allowed to drive on the roads of this world. Like it or not, the dream of personal expression in the vehicles we drive is narrowing into a choice of colors and electronic gadgets. Fuel costs and availability will dictate the power train option. Safety regulations and wind tunnel testing will dictate the structure and it's shape. Population will restrict usage. Without the sheer joy of a drive for no other reason than the drive itself, or pulling apart the intake system for a swap to another style for a possible improvement in performance, won't be allowed except for parades or antique shows, if all pertaining permits are submitted 90 days in advance. Time marches on. What I try to pass on is the love of a mechanism and the brotherhood that surrounds it. The car is just a pile of tin and drips. It is the energy we bring to it that breaths life into it. It would be great if VW's could still be spotted on the highways 100 years from now, but look at what has happened to transportation in the last 100 years.

[jamiep_jamiep]

I see plenty of young folks getting into the hobby here in Staffordshire and Cheshire where I live. The local club scene is strong, with our own club the SAS RENNWAGENS being probably the only local club around here that is a bit more specialized being a cal look/racing club, but there are plenty of other non specialised local clubs that we all hang out with. Plenty of young (18-25) people coming in to them, a lot via. the later water cooled cars (Golfs Polos etc.) that then go Aircooled and then we try to corrupt them with talk of stroker motors, IDA's & turbo's haha, we get I would say another 5 or 6 prospects per year, and these have generally gone through to full members once they've run their club times.

I agree that you don't see as many bugs on the road as you used to, I would say that more of them are becoming second, or day out, cars than before. Even the young folks I know (and they aren't loaded with £££ or anything) treat them as second cars.

I think the progression that used to be buy a (usually late model) aircooled VW, make all the mistakes, fit all the cheap tat parts, watch them rust, then go out and do it again, usually gradually getting an earlier and progressively earlier car too, is still pretty similar, only instead of starting off with probably a 70's Beetle, they're now starting off with 90's Golfs.

Russell is 100% correct, there are a lot of cowboys about, I think the only thing we can do about this is encourage newer enthusiasts to clubs or forums where they can get some honest advice about who is best to work on their car.

[jamiep_jamiep]

Rather than worrying about another generation coming up to carry on the air cooled hobby, I look to the future of transportation itself. We may be some of the last to have the freedom to alter the cars we are allowed to drive on the roads of this world. Like it or not, the dream of personal expression in the vehicles we drive is narrowing into a choice of colors and electronic gadgets. Fuel costs and availability will dictate the power train option. Safety regulations and wind tunnel testing will dictate the structure and it's shape. Population will restrict usage. Without the sheer joy of a drive for no other reason than the drive itself, or pulling apart the intake system for a swap to another style for a possible improvement in performance, won't be allowed except for parades or antique shows, if all pertaining permits are submitted 90 days in advance. Time marches on. What I try to pass on is the love of a mechanism and the brotherhood that surrounds it. The car is just a pile of tin and drips. It is the energy we bring to it that breaths life into it. It would be great if VW's could still be spotted on the highways 100 years from now, but look at what has happened to transportation in the last 100 years.

Agree Mark, future legislation is the big worry.

[Metalflakedave]

When i started out, bugs and bus's were plentiful, at cheap money, flip on 20 years, i can go a whole month without seeing one on the road, aircooled vw's will be for the hardcore kids, not because its cool, and most certainly not because its affordable, maybe they love them, maybe they grew up with them, they must have a real desire to roll one, v's the cost of buying a cheap hack from any marque, slam it and put rims on, job done, then a £3000 beetle does not represent daily value for money. I certainly wouldnt go out and buy one if i was 18 now i would want an economical box that started heated and does all the things a modern car does, most kids cant afford 3k minimum for a solid bug let alone insurance etc, a daily driver cheap hack and a resto in the garage maybe. I could be wrong, times have moved on.

I still have memories of having to park my old 64 on the only slope in the car park so i could bump start it every morning at 3am after working in the bar, gloves 3 layers and an ice scraper were mandatory, lol but we all did it.

May as well make this my first post on here. Good topic. I'm MFD. As Ben knows, I've frequented VZI quite a bit over the years - thought I'd come over here seen as I have a worthy motor in the back now.

I've had my bug for around 7 years. None of my mates had them and I am currently the only one around here with one. I did it because I liked the modifying a classic aspect, as opposed to everyone just getting modern cars and sticking Halfords crap to them, and the cheap(er) insurance of course.

I was lucky because I had a full workshop at home so bought a project before I could drive and rebuilt it. Still a nice solid car without really a bubble in sight 7 years later.

I started off using mine as a daily, but soon felt like I would ruin it so got a little run about for going to sixth form.

Times have even moved on since then though - you see a few people buying minis at 18, but at least they have heaters 

In the UK things have really changed over the last 5 years IMHO.

When I needed a first car that was a classic, cheap to insure and reasonably reliable I went for a Beetle in 2006 at the age of 15 in preparation for my 17th Birthday. The car cost £350 and was on the road for under a grand.

The first Beetle was replaced by an unfinished project that just needed reassembly and that owes me only £1500 or so and is a good solid Beetle.

If I look in most classifieds now, you won't get any change out of £2000-3000 for a good running example. Any decent early car seems to be £4-10k.

It's a case of supply and demand but I reckon young people are being priced out of the scene. Parts have got significantly more expensive too and classic insurance for 17/18 y/o is becoming increasingly difficult to obtain.

Also, at 21 my Beetle feels a bit childish to me these days. Most of my friends are too scared or perhaps embarrassed to ride in it! I am losing the love too and am sick of the 'scene tax' so my car is up for sale and I'm off to try something new after having owned a Beetle for my whole driving life. 

In last 5 years it has changed.

I got mine in 2005 and rebuilt it for my 16 & 17th birthdays. I'm 24 now. It cost £450.00 on Ebay and we trailerd it from Hemel Hempstead to York. 

I'd say it cost about £1500 to get it looking good and as above, it still looks well now. It hasn't deteriorated at all put it that way. Owes me a lot more now, different wheels, £6k 2276 etc etc.

Parts have got a lot dearer too - alternatior conversion kit for example - £100.00 in 2007/8, £200.00+ now.

I wouldn't want to start again though. For what I have £8k in now, I couldn't build for £10k - and its not a show car. But a solid bug, decentt box, decent wheels, paint, suspension, brakes and new 2276 couldn't be had for what I have in it  / have it insured for.

I for one though have not fallen out of love with it. As I've just got my IDA motor up and running I'm just starting to love it even more - they do say 'Happiness is a Hot VW'. Maybe don't sell and get a stomper of a motor - Your friends may be too scared to ride in yours then, but it won't be embarassing!

I suppose I'm about one of the youngest blood there is with a Hot VW at 24. Have saved for a couple of years to build the motor, can afford another car and insurance for both. Just wish there were more of us with quick VWs around, esp in Yorkshire to knock about with.

[Ole]

As much as I appreciate every attempt to raise the interest in our hobby, I think it just happens - or not.   

One thing that hasn't been mentioned in this thread is the availability of information. When I started in ACVW's the only way to get information were local VW-clubs or imported (=expensive) magazines from US. Today *click* here you go.

P.S: a discussion about the future of our hobby started by somebody involved in the oil-business gives me hope...