Perspective (Old and New and Everything In Between)

[hotrodsurplus]

Don't use this connection to JUST repeat the past, we might miss out on something  

There's a lot to that.

Because Ed Roth made his name in the '50s and '60s people assume that he's somehow 'old school.' Nothing could be further from the truth. The guy HATED going backwards. I got one of my favorite terms, "The bad old days" from him. In his estimation, if things were so great back then why did we change them? Of course he had to use older car parts as his material sources; they were affordable. Why reinvent the wheel?

But to him it was asinine to even customize a production car. I have a book behind me where he says, "Why would you do that? When you're finished you still have a Ford or a Chevy, someone else's dream."  He really encouraged people to build their own bodies and fiberglass made that possible.

He felt largely the same way about missing out on things. To him, you can't see what's coming if you're constantly looking back.

It's not to say that we should install 20-inch wheels and suede interiors. Those are just the physical trappings of progress (which are already outmoded anyway). There are so many other ways to embrace technology that don't have to alter the way a car looks. Why we're still mucking about with a twin-trailing-arm front suspension that Porsche stole FROM TATRA is beyond me. It has ZERO anti-dive properties and has no roll center, both of which play a critical role in high-speed handling and braking.

Sure, people have introduced bolt-on A-arm suspensions but the bolt-on system really compromises the geometry. And they still use Volkswagen knuckles which is preposterous because it's impossible to get a decent negative camber curve from a short spindle. Whether it's because people don't have the skills or they've just drank the Kool Aid, the Volkswagen crowd is still stuck in this 'We can't cut up these cars' mode.

The same goes for semi-trailing-arm rear suspension. I got some old news for you guys: swing-axle suspension is flat-out a bad idea on a high-horsepower car. They oversteer with impunity, a really bad thing to happen when you get crossed up at speed. That a few guys have figured out ways to tame them has justified a whole population to assume that they're adequate for high performance. I'm not saying that we all have to go out and convert our rear suspensions but we DO have to eliminate this stigma that says that a semi-trailing-arm suspension isn't appropriate for some abstract definition.

By in large the Volkswagen community has locked itself in 1992 or so and refuses to progress. Those were some of the other things that made the early days fun. It was about experimentation and progress. These are all things that don't necessarily alter a car's aesthetic (which to be honest is a prevailing reason we build these cars this way) but it does alter their behavior.

[Fritter]

Gray Baskerville...loved that guys writing, from the heart and not some generic super edited down articles like one reads in Road and Track!  I used to love an English mag called Performance Car that went belly up in the late 90s, it was written in the same funny, down to earth style that I love. Peter Egan style, to name another. I hate generically written homogenized drivel.

[hotrodsurplus]

Gray Baskerville...loved that guys writing, from the heart and not some generic super edited down articles like one reads in Road and Track!  I used to love an English mag called Performance Car that went belly up in the late 90s, it was written in the same funny, down to earth style that I love. Peter Egan style, to name another. I hate generically written homogenized drivel.

Last week I talked to Jim Jacobs, aka the "Jake" in Pete & Jake's. I found some photos of three '33 Fords that he had, one of which became his famous yellow fenderless coupe with the '37 pickup grille. Gray shot the photos for an R&C story. The two were quite close--Pete & Jake's rebuilt Gray's car in '74 in fact. Typical for people close to Gray, Jake got a little wistful when I started describing the photos. He remembered the day vividly. "You know, Gray just made everything fun," he said. And you could see it in the photos--a fist full of dollars in one, them jokingly jamming a Deuce tank into a garbage can in another, and so on.

He earned countless fans like you for that reason. The dude was a great-big child in a playground full of cars. He just loved what he did and it showed in his writing.

You should read Mark Vaughn. Different style but really evocative and quite intelligent. Same goes for Jonny Lieberman. You can feel the passion come through their stuff and it's enjoyable even if you don't care for the things they're writing about. I haven't read him for years but Jamie Kitman used to be the same way.

They all make it sound fun because they're HAVING fun.

[Dyno-Don]

*about the Camaro. Boy this is gonna piss off a few people. If you look at it, the Cal Look movement took shape as the NHRA created the Pro Stock class. Think of the common ground: Pro Stock and Cal Look cars sat nose down, had big tires in the rear and skinny ones in the front, used lightweight wheels, eliminated everything not essential to the vehicle, forbade 'custom' bodywork, and so on. Hell, they both ran fiberglass hoods, Grant steering wheels, Hurst shifters, and so on. Pro Stock and Cal Look were oriented to one thing: going as fast as possible in a straight line. Cal Look It owes its existence largely to the Pro Stock movement.

Hell, Cal Look evolved largely by the same way Pro Street (the domestic outgrowth of Pro Stock) did. The cars started out relatively high but over time got progressively lower. The rear tires got bigger (albeit not as big as pro street). The trim seemed to migrate back onto the cars. I mean look at late '70s and '80s Pro Street and Cal Look cars: Pete Santini was doing graphics on all of them!

So really, I think a Cal Look Camaro isn't as off base as some of the other definitions of Cal Look are. (just my personal opinion of course).

I got my Deist lobster-tail suit on. Flame away!  

'
Cal Look from Pro Stock - Hmmm, bit of a stretch. The timing is close, with ProStock coming about in 1970, but i think the Cal Look more emulated the VW Drag Racing scene (and maybe THAT followed Pro Stock styling, or maybe it was just waht worked best to get a VW down the track). BUT I don't know about the ProStreet path as ProStreet really was Neither - it wasn't a Pro class of anything (except maybe the pro Builders pocket book) and it certainly wasn't Street, at least not in the way that Cal look bugs were.
And current ProStreet? Well, since I work with a guy who races "ProStreet" and it's a carbon fiber bodied, tube framed car, that makes over 3500 HP and has gone 5.90's at over 250 there sure as hell isn't anything Street out that any more  

[Fritter]

Yep, I really used to love Jamie Kitman in early Automobile magazines from the mid 90s or so.  Different, quirky style.  Interesting to read.  I still see stuff from him from time to time.

Most of the generic articles about the NEW MORE POWERFUL LEXUS in R&T are the opposite!  Reads like a bad press release, they all read the same and one comes away from them not remembering anything of value. 

I will try to find some stuff by those other guys you mention. 

Yep, it's ALL about the fun, the feeling.  Much like good music.  Yngwie Malmsteen is a great technical guitarist, but after a song or two, I always fall back on some old Rolling Stones from Exile on Main Street or Sticky Fingers.  Sure, not as technically proficient, but much more interesting and fun!

Gray Baskerville...loved that guys writing, from the heart and not some generic super edited down articles like one reads in Road and Track!  I used to love an English mag called Performance Car that went belly up in the late 90s, it was written in the same funny, down to earth style that I love. Peter Egan style, to name another. I hate generically written homogenized drivel.

Last week I talked to Jim Jacobs, aka the "Jake" in Pete & Jake's. I found some photos of three '33 Fords that he had, one of which became his famous yellow fenderless coupe with the '37 pickup grille. Gray shot the photos for an R&C story. The two were quite close--Pete & Jake's rebuilt Gray's car in '74 in fact. Typical for people close to Gray, Jake got a little wistful when I started describing the photos. He remembered the day vividly. "You know, Gray just made everything fun," he said. And you could see it in the photos--a fist full of dollars in one, them jokingly jamming a Deuce tank into a garbage can in another, and so on.

He earned countless fans like you for that reason. The dude was a great-big child in a playground full of cars. He just loved what he did and it showed in his writing.

You should read Mark Vaughn. Different style but really evocative and quite intelligent. Same goes for Jonny Lieberman. You can feel the passion come through their stuff and it's enjoyable even if you don't care for the things they're writing about. I haven't read him for years but Jamie Kitman used to be the same way.

They all make it sound fun because they're HAVING fun.

[javabug]

I got into VW's because girls really liked the slide open hole in the roof. And at age 16, I really liked the view as they stood up so close to me on the seat.

This is a completely legitimate justification. And I'm certain that figures into Cal-look somewhere.

[hotrodsurplus]

Cal Look from Pro Stock - Hmmm, bit of a stretch. The timing is close, with ProStock coming about in 1970, but i think the Cal Look more emulated the VW Drag Racing scene (and maybe THAT followed Pro Stock styling, or maybe it was just waht worked best to get a VW down the track).

Well few things have a direct linkage. But compare these:



with




They're only a few degrees apart. They're all just hot rods.

BUT I don't know about the ProStreet path as ProStreet really was Neither - it wasn't a Pro class of anything (except maybe the pro Builders pocket book) and it certainly wasn't Street, at least not in the way that Cal look bugs were.

Fair enough; Pro Street cars weren't daily drivers the way most cal cars were but remember Cheez Whiz? Man, today a lot of people are building Beetles that don't look all that different stylistically. Guys are even tubbing Volkswagens now, largely a result of the VW racecars.

[Mike Maize]

Chris it makes me glad to know guys like Ed Roth had their sights set on the future. I feel like I have so little time that I can't afford to redo the past. I don't even like to watch a movie twice when there are so many that I have not seen! I'm already cooking up my next build with no recipe. It will be a VW, it will be fast, I will drive it with malice........hopefully there won't be another one like it

[Dyno-Don]

Chris,

Remember Cheez Whiz? it's ingrained in my brain!!!!!!

It was good to see Scott and the car at the HOT ROD mag 65th party. I've spent some time with Scott and he is a great dude. You might have seen the deal with me and him building John Buck's Speed33 at the GNRS on TV a couple years back, classic "car guys doing silly stuff"!

[Jon]

BMW designer Adrian VanHooydonk (almost the best name in the world) came out very against retro, calling it among other things a gimmick.

What I love about those cal look cars featured in the early VW magazines is that they always had at least one feature that, by today's standards, looked completely out of place compared to the rest of the car. Such as a completely dechromed car with a chrome glove box door or later model tail lights on an oval window. Carpet half way up the door panel (Aronson's rag), or the Berglar with full US spec bumpers, no one would consider doing that stuff today. It's wrong, it totally goes against the flow of the car. But for me it gives the car some individuality. I love that stuff.

White smoke!  Zach for Pope!!

[Zach Gomulka]

 

[hotrodsurplus]

I feel like I have so little time that I can't afford to redo the past.

Yeah, no kidding. That's why I've never really appreciated most clones of historical cars. I mean for one person to absolutely faithfully clone a car that no longer exists is fairly noble if only to create a physical memento of missing history. We need to have representations. But I think the subsequent clones only cheapen the original. I mean how many Herbies do we really need?

The thing that people seem to overlook is that there's a lot of latitude to do something new even if you're using nothing but old parts. Not every combination has been done. And we can bring modern technology to bear on old style. My pal John Gunsaulis built a roadster that made it into the AMBR contention at this year's Grand National Roadster Show (you can read about it in this month's Rod & Custom--it's the cover car). He cast his own floor mats. They have ribs and the car's name on them and they look as if Ford made them. He made his own gauge cluster. He made his own seat frame to resemble a Wassily chair (in fact he used the bends from a reproduction chair). The crazy one is the fuel tank sides: he used a CNC router to carve them to resemble a Fordson tank but with his car's name instead of Fordson.

He built a car that in no way resembles any other hot rod ever built but it's undeniable: it's a hot rod. It goes to show that you can confine yourself in a pretty narrow niche (historical appearing hot rods or even Cal Look Volkswagens) but still find ways to push the boundaries.
 

I'm already cooking up my next build with no recipe. It will be a VW, it will be fast, I will drive it with malice........hopefully there won't be another one like it

I dunno buddy...that sounds like a recipe to me but I can't argue with that at all!  

[Jim Ratto]

Both of these cars are like living next door to a grumpy, unreasonable, youth hating old man in his bathrobe and reading glasses and bombarding him with really bad punk guitar chords all day

http://cal-look.no/lounge/index.php/topic,8784.0.html

Which is why I love them.

[hotrodsurplus]

Both of these cars are like living next door to a grumpy, unreasonable, youth hating old man in his bathrobe and reading glasses and bombarding him with really bad punk guitar chords all day

If they weren't quite so low you could also do...donuts on his lawn. 



Tony Orlando and Dawn.

[Mike Maize]

My old neighbor guy barely survived the "tuning" segment of the build! The cops drove by constantly because he kept wanting me arrested for revving it......

I really love seeing the stuff PIP builds.

[Bugsy]

Hey Mike!

Pleas get some new pics off your car when it´s out on the streets again. I love it. 
Love this thread to. It will be endless.

Carry on.

[Mike Maize]

Will do Bugsy. Should be cracking it open tomorrow.

[iowa mark]

I got into VW's because girls really liked the slide open hole in the roof. And at age 16, I really liked the view as they stood up so close to me on the seat.

This is a completely legitimate justification. And I'm certain that figures into Cal-look somewhere.

You are absolutely right about it having little to do with the Cal-look except for the idea that it is a moment in time that fits just right in your mind and yet is hard to translate into words. I was talking to a street rodder buddy one time about a certain car  we both knew. "It's got that look, ya' know that look?" I knew exactly what he was talking about without another word having to be spoken. As the Cal-look evolves and subtle changes happen, there is still "that look" that ties it together with everything that was just right before. Like that 16 year old girl standing on the seat, hair in the wind, and legs up to.........Ya' know that look?  It changes and yet it never changes.

[lawrence]

all good points guys

What I'm trying to get here, is what was your initial impression when you got into the scene? What made you take notice? What has changed (to your liiking or disliking) since then?

One thing I remember was the sensation of "shock" not only from the first real fast ride I went for, but also the visual aspect. Two different cars, the first real monster I went for a ride in was a primered trash-can of a '64 but it was untouchable in high school parking lot full of Z28's and Trans Ams. But for the initial shock of what could be done, aesthetically, it was Pete Staat's metallic blue car from the mid 1980's, then the line up @ the VW Jamboree 1990 (Costa Mesa).... Gary Berg, Schwimmer, Jim Lowe, Dave Mason, Brody Hoyt, Hector, Jim Bangs, Rayburn...

More than anything, for me, something about a definitive Cal Look hot rod, something about the car has to make you keep thinking about it. When I got into the scene, the big thing was aqua-blue-green paint, repro 8 spokes (even on '67 & earlier), 1-piece windows, no moldings, chrome engines and Baby Dellortos. There were rows and rows of identical cars like this @ Bug Bash in the 1980's (Pleasanton CA). My '67 was bone stock aside from 5.5" wide chrome 5 lug wheels and amber topped taillights. And the small hot rod motor I built for it, senior year.
I agree, some of the aspects of what has, long term, defined "The Look" are timeless, and will remain so. But, again, something needs to stand out. Walking the shows in the early 1990's if a car wore BRM's, it was an event.

As a grade school kid, shiny parts and bikini girls from 90s VW magazines were the things that made the biggest impression on me. Remember the old GEX longblock ads? I loved looking at Formuling France steering wheels, repop alloys, and that pink beetle in the Hawaiian-style white rubber ads. Those things were all very cool to me and I wanted to put them on a car. In hindsight, the ads placed by those companies were doing their job perfectly because they were attracting fresh people to the hobby with flashy, exciting parts. Later on, clean, hi-performance cars (muffler mike's STREET car, the SSB, and dave conklin's car) really got my attention and kept me wanting more. I liked the stripped down, no nonsense look that they all shared. This style was transfered to the build of my own car years later.

This hobby has changed a lot in the last 20 years, but many things have remained the same. There are still large ads with cylinder heads, interior parts, and cool steering wheels. That is fine because it may appeal to the next uninitiated, but curious kid like me. The clean, hi-performance cars are also still there, however the magazine cars seem to be much more about one-upping the last guy than anything else. I guess that is inherent with the territory. There are some things that I dislike about the hobby, but I would rather discuss the things that I like. The internet is already overflowing with people who have nothing better to do than whine about other people's cars, why the newest fads suck, blah blah blah. BORING.

Anyway, I really like the movements toward land speed racing, old speed, and getting VWs to act more like sports cars. The majority of our hobby is probably aware of supercharger kits, okrasa kits, and various other parts that have created a new niche within our hobby. The idea of build a modified 36hp engine and shoving it into a stripped down, vintage looking oval window beetle is very interesting to me. This would make a cool daily driver or weekend car that wouldn't cost a tremendous amount of money if the work is performed at home. With all that being said, I am not sure what the future holds for our hobby, but I hope it is around for a long time. And hopefully new mag engine cases won't cost an arm and a leg. They are already too expensive as it is.

[low oval]

First thing to go then:
Front torsion bars
stock steering wheel replaced with a Formuling France
Shifter replaced with anything else
Exhaust, replaced with an SS
stock wheels, with anything non steel
AM radio replaced with an 8 track
Stock Carburator
Chrome trim
Bumpers

First thing to go today:
Stock Height
Stock Steering Wheel
Stock Shifter
Stock exhaust
Stock Engine
Stock Wheels
AM Radio with no radio
But now I'm looking for a bunch of NOS stuff that I would have happily thrown away 30 plus years ago.

[modnrod]

They're only a few degrees apart. They're all just hot rods.

Yep.

Wow, 3 pages of Grumpy Old Men! 

HAHAHAHA!!! I'm going to roll out the guard lips and slam my Beetle over fat 14s, I'm a bit of a rebel, so I'm not gonna cover the sharp edges either. Throw a 2BBL Holley on it and 4 big pipes so it doesn't sound right. I'm gonna leave the dents in the roof from where people have climbed all over it to watch the races over the years. It's a Superbug too, so this way I can be universally despised at the next VW car show I roll into.

Oh, hang on, already been there done that.........