European records, should we have some?

[richie]

I have been thinking for a while it would be good to have some European records kept, maybe by one of the magazines like HotVWs does for USA & Land speed records, or maybe Trond could add it to the Top racers section or both would be even better.

What I was thinking we would want is 4 classes

N/A pan cars
Power adder pan cars
N/A chassis cars
Power adder chassis cars

Personally I think they should be aircooled vw flat 4 style rear engine only but am happy to hear input from everyone on this.

As per every sanctioning body I can think of any record would have to be backed up at the same meeting within 1%, if not by 1% then the faster time backs up the slower time.

There are lots of quick cars scattered around Europe now and I like to think that it would motivate everyone even more to go quicker

So if we did this what would the records be right now?

I am thinking that currently it would be

Thomas Kemp  N/A pan car  [ 10.21@204kmh]

Mexx N/A chassis car           [ 9.96@220kmh] I know Freddy went quicker but I don think he did 2 passes?

Hakan power adder Pan car [9.04@255kmh]

Stian power adder chassis car[8.59@263kmh]

but have no idea if they managed to run 2 good passes the same weekend that they made those runs

Would people be interested to see this done?

I am also trying to see if I can get some sponsorship to create a prize for landmark records in Europe, mainly the 1st European N/A pan car 9s and the 1st 7s !!! to create even more interest in this

I will update that as and when I make some progress

cheers Richie

[bang]

sounds like a good idea. i am in

[Trond Dahl]

Sounds cool:-)
I can add my bit to it as soon as I am done laying on the beach:-)

[BeetleBug]

Ok, where should we place Tor Øyvind and his beetle?

- World fastest, original vw pan car
- licenced and registrated, fully street legal.
- No fancy shifting, just ordinary H pattern Porsche gearbox
- Oval body, metal with light weight doors
- No parachute needed because the car is stable @ 175mph

Need I say more?

-BB-

[Steve D.]

Ok, where should we place Tor Øyvind and his beetle?

With the watercooled cars

[BeetleBug]

Ok, where should we place Tor Øyvind and his beetle?

With the watercooled cars

Steve.. do you actually believe that the water is the reason he is the world fastest vw?

[Steve D.]

Steve.. do you actually believe that the water is the reason he is the world fastest vw?

It certainly doesn't hurt.  Aircooled is aircooled, watercooled is watercooled, I don't doubt it's impressive and I certainly don't want to take away from their massive accomplishments, it just isn't an aircooled engine platform.  The Skinne car should be in a class of it's own simply because it IS in a class of it's own, it's not likely a rear-engined h-pattern pan car is going to go any quicker than them regardless of what watercooled vw engine it uses anyway.

[modnrod]

Easy-peasy, add an Outlaw or "Open Class", specifically for VW-bodied cars that are no longer air-cooled, so Wasser/ScoobyDoo/Evo/Golf, whatever.

And just how DOES he keep that thing straight and on the ground at BMW-limiter speeds exactly?!?!?!?!  I'd love for someone to put a basic list up without taking away any "secrets", amazing job.

Any list ANYWHERE without Tor's ride included isn't a real list I reckon.

[BeetleBug]

It certainly doesn't hurt.  Aircooled is aircooled, watercooled is watercooled, I don't doubt it's impressive and I certainly don't want to take away from their massive accomplishments, it just isn't an aircooled engine platform.  The Skinne car should be in a class of it's own simply because it IS in a class of it's own, it's not likely a rear-engined h-pattern pan car is going to go any quicker than them regardless of what watercooled vw engine it uses anyway.

I agree, it does not hurt and it do not help. The only thing the water does is adding 25+kg or so and allows them to have have the car ready for the next round of racing sooner than anyone else. Drain the water out and it is just as aircooled as anyone else out there.

-BB-

[Jyrki]

I have been thinking for a while it would be good to have some European records kept, maybe by one of the magazines like HotVWs does for USA & Land speed records, or maybe Trond could add it to the Top racers section or both would be even better.

As per every sanctioning body I can think of any record would have to be backed up at the same meeting within 1%, if not by 1% then the faster time backs up the slower time.

Would people be interested to see this done?

cheers Richie

YES, EXCELLENT IDEA!!!! I would also say Yes for the need to back-up.

Jyrki

[richie]

Ok, where should we place Tor Øyvind and his beetle?

- World fastest, original vw pan car
- licenced and registrated, fully street legal.
- No fancy shifting, just ordinary H pattern Porsche gearbox
- Oval body, metal with light weight doors
- No parachute needed because the car is stable @ 175mph

Need I say more?

-BB-

I don't know, I have thought of a "anything else class" as well it deserves recognition for sure as its an amazing car

The reason to have aircooled VW style flat 4 rear engine records is that is what we are all into, that is our passion.  That is what most of us started with in its most basic form. I know there is constant talk about what if they took the water out from the Skinne car, would it be aircooled? I don't think its the water that gives it an advantage either, its the development that has gone into it that makes it so special, but at what point to do you draw the line? is overcams ok? like some have created? they still were aircooled on some versions, then is a suburu engine ok with no water in it? etc etc. You need to stop somewhere and for me it is "VW style aircooled flat 4 pushrod engines in the rear" But if this idea gets accepted and it is adopted to allow factory WBX engines then so be it

I am just putting the idea out there for everyones input, so keep the thoughts coming


cheers Richie

[richie]

Easy-peasy, add an Outlaw or "Open Class", specifically for VW-bodied cars that are no longer air-cooled, so Wasser/ScoobyDoo/Evo/Golf, whatever.

And just how DOES he keep that thing straight and on the ground at BMW-limiter speeds exactly?!?!?!?!  I'd love for someone to put a basic list up without taking away any "secrets", amazing job.

Any list ANYWHERE without Tor's ride included isn't a real list I reckon.

There is a SCC video you can buy that takes you to his garage and he talks about the car, you see underneath and learn a lot about it, its 3 or 4 years old now so they have done more to it since then but it will give you a good idea of what makes it tick


And NO, not inline engines for sure whatever ever else it is, they are of no interest for this set of records.


cheers Richie

[Berger]

Ok, where should we place Tor Øyvind and his beetle?

- World fastest, original vw pan car
- licenced and registrated, fully street legal.
- No fancy shifting, just ordinary H pattern Porsche gearbox
- Oval body, metal with light weight doors
- No parachute needed because the car is stable @ 175mph

Need I say more?

-BB-

I don't know, I have thought of a "anything else class" as well it deserves recognition for sure as its an amazing car

The reason to have aircooled VW style flat 4 rear engine records is that is what we are all into, that is our passion.  That is what most of us started with in its most basic form. I know there is constant talk about what if they took the water out from the Skinne car, would it be aircooled? I don't think its the water that gives it an advantage either, its the development that has gone into it that makes it so special, but at what point to do you draw the line? is overcams ok? like some have created? they still were aircooled on some versions, then is a suburu engine ok with no water in it? etc etc. You need to stop somewhere and for me it is "VW style aircooled flat 4 pushrod engines in the rear" But if this idea gets accepted and it is adopted to allow factory WBX engines then so be it

I am just putting the idea out there for everyones input, so keep the thoughts coming


cheers Richie

I think your idea to have a list with european records is good
But where to draw the line for who's in and who's not will always be difficult, and I think the rules must be crystal clear. What about vw powered Fiat's?
One simple rule should be the answer: the engine has to be a flat four with vw like engineering, rear mounted.
Cooling, fuel, ignition, exhaust, induction etc may be whatever.
This saves us from many dilemmas, such as water cooled IC's, water cooled engines, flat four engines with no vw parts at all etc

[richie]

I think your idea to have a list with european records is good
But where to draw the line for who's in and who's not will always be difficult, and I think the rules must be crystal clear. What about vw powered Fiat's?
One simple rule should be the answer: the engine has to be a flat four with vw like engineering, rear mounted.
Cooling, fuel, ignition, exhaust, induction etc may be whatever.
This saves us from many dilemmas, such as water cooled IC's, water cooled engines, flat four engines with no vw parts at all etc

So I feel that the basic idea is a good one

I deliberately didn't state body styles for one main reason, given the  Class records I was thinking of I don't see a Fiat etc setting them, there obviously not eligible in the Pan based classes, and with that wheelbase if they set a chassis record then good luck to them

Given what Kalle mentioned maybe we should just give the Skinne car the pan power adder record now and close that class, no one will ever get near them , although I don't remember them backing up anything below a 8.70ish so who knows, does anyone know what there two best passes are at any 1 event? need to be within 1% for the quicker time to be valid

Personally I would still like it to be aircooled only, but majority should decide


Trond, when you finished toasting yourself on the beach can you tell me if its possible to set up a poll type vote on here? or any of the moderators for that matter?

cheers Richie

[Jon]

Cool idea, hope it all works out with the rules.
 Just to complicate it further, to avoid to spill water on the track Tor Øyvind is sometimes draining the water before running it.
He just instruct the driver not to stop for a hotdog on the way back.
:-)
BTW floor pan, that means vw style front suspension and vw style rear suspension? So backhalved counts as a chassi car?
Suspension makes a difference on the performance, floor pans or not doesent. My 2 øre.

[richie]

Cool idea, hope it all works out with the rules.
 Just to complicate it further, to avoid to spill water on the track Tor Øyvind is sometimes draining the water before running it.
He just instruct the driver not to stop for a hotdog on the way back.
:-)
BTW floor pan, that means vw style front suspension and vw style rear suspension? So backhalved counts as a chassi car?
Suspension makes a difference on the performance, floor pans or not doesent. My 2 øre.

Pan car= Stock VW style suspension

Anything else would fit in the 2nd catagory

[Udo]

Richie
The problem is that we have not much cars that are US class leagal - so we must make our own rules ...

Udo

[richie]

Richie
The problem is that we have not much cars that are US class leagal - so we must make our own rules ...

Udo

Udo

no need for complicated rules, this is Europe hence European records

The 4 "classes" I stated are easy enough

1 : Stock pan car, VW factory style suspension, normally aspirated

2 :Stock pan car, VW factory style suspension, any power adders

3 :Anything else[chassis car, back half etc] normally aspirated

4 :Anything else [ chassis car, back half etc ] any power adders

All must be VW style flat four engine in the rear. [ just wether to state "aircooled" or not seems to be the only stumbling block right now ]


So get that gearbox fixed and go create a New record

cheers Richie

[Udo]

Hope at Bug Jam 

[Berger]

I just have to throw in a few more arguments in the air cooled or not question:
-The cooling has little to none impact on the result on a quarter mile. If it was a endurance race or similar, the cooling would be a relevant question.
-In the rest of the dragrace world, what type of cooling the engine has is as far as I know, not a very "hot" issue
-Leaving out the very best flat four engine case VW made would be a little bit strange, when for example a Scat Killer Case is ok. Especially when the wbx is so close in design to the air cooled type 1 case.

This said, I am a big fan of the air cooled engine 

[richie]

Berger,

I get the feeling you should be in the garage working on your WBX powered bug instead of throwing in more arguments

its not the durability of the watercooling or otherwise, its just where to stop with what you allow, if you allow WBX would you allow inline VW engines? You are going to allow engines from later VW models so what about golfs? they are the same era as vanagons?
Then what class would you fit the Skinne car into?  what about vanagon suspension, if you allow the engine then why not the suspension, I know its stupid but its really were you draw the line.


This said I am a big fan of the WBX engine                                                                  [in a van ]

[Berger]

You are right Richie, I should be in the garage, but I am home letting my frustration over not getting any spark from the EDIS module rain over my fellow VW friends on the internet 

As said before, I think the line is behind the flat four VW design, so no inline engines of course.

In which class would you put a aircooled Vanagon..?   

[richie]

In which class would you put a aircooled Vanagon..?   

Tow vehicle

[LGK]

Berger,

I get the feeling you should be in the garage working on your WBX powered bug instead of throwing in more arguments

its not the durability of the watercooling or otherwise, its just where to stop with what you allow, if you allow WBX would you allow inline VW engines? You are going to allow engines from later VW models so what about golfs? they are the same era as vanagons?
Then what class would you fit the Skinne car into?  what about vanagon suspension, if you allow the engine then why not the suspension, I know its stupid but its really were you draw the line.


This said I am a big fan of the WBX engine                                                                  [in a van ]

Hi Richie,

First of all good idea about the setting record list...
You're asking for our input and opinions?
Here we go;

Honestly i don't agree with you about the "where to stop what you allow to enter the classes..." If you are talking about FLAT 4 ENGINES,then i doubt somebody would try to enter a car with an "INLINE 4 cyl engine",i feel that "inline-engines" and flat4-engine are MILES away from each other we agree on that ?

A WBX engine is STILL FLAT4 !!

So if you ask me i'll have to say if you don't allow anything WBX-engine-related to enter a class,we need to refuse all those scat/pauter/TF-1/autocraft etc... engines too!Then we have another discussion about those ALU-case-modified 4 inch bore engines...And now i'm speaking against myself

I guess you won't have many particpants to run those top-numbers for the list after all...Or we should start a new classes on it's own for mainly stock VW engine-case-based engines...

 i'd say as long as we are VW/aftermarket flat4-engine talking whatever it be...Pauter big block,WBX engine,WBX-modified to AIR,Autocraft-engine with watercooled heads,etc...as long as it's NOT an overhead-cammed flat4-engine,it would be allowed to enter ANY of the classes.
After all we 're just playing right? And we all love to see some RECORDS aren't we?And no we're not talking Subie-engines for those who will reply...

Best regards and have a nice day you all Loungers!

Regards Steve

[richie]

Hi Steve

good reply   It is just wether to allow WBX engines running water, not oxyboxer or similar, but it does look more and more like we should allow them


Another question for you all, on the stock VW suspension pan car classes what limitations should be in place? if any?

do we allow raised and narrowed torsion?

must the engine/trans be mounted like factory?

must the suspension be stock style for the year car used? or?

can you put struts on a beam car or a beam on a strut car and it be ok still?

This is where it gets difficult/confusing when you allow later engine styles, then don't allow later suspension styles

cheers Richie

[Berger]

Hi Steve

good reply   It is just wether to allow WBX engines running water, not oxyboxer or similar, but it does look more and more like we should allow them


Another question for you all, on the stock VW suspension pan car classes what limitations should be in place? if any?

do we allow raised and narrowed torsion?

must the engine/trans be mounted like factory?

must the suspension be stock style for the year car used? or?

can you put struts on a beam car or a beam on a strut car and it be ok still?

This is where it gets difficult/confusing when you allow later engine styles, then don't allow later suspension styles

cheers Richie

Again, keep it simple. Stock spring design in stock location on a pan car. Everything else in suspension = do what you want   

[richie]

Again, keep it simple. Stock spring design in stock location on a pan car.

Front and rear? so no modified torsion housings? I agree with that

 Everything else in suspension = do what you want    

This is where you are thinking logically, not like a racer , if you dont write it in black and white someone will bend the rules

I am already looking to see how I can fit ladder bars with coil overs next to my stock suspension

I think it needs to say " no coil overs " at least


cheers Richie

[Berger]

Again, keep it simple. Stock spring design in stock location on a pan car.

Front and rear? so no modified torsion housings?


cheers Richie

Yes, correct. That is my opinion

[Berger]

Again, keep it simple. Stock spring design in stock location on a pan car.

Front and rear? so no modified torsion housings? I agree with that

 Everything else in suspension = do what you want    

This is where you are thinking logically, not like a racer , if you dont write it in black and white someone will bend the rules

I am already looking to see how I can fit ladder bars with coil overs next to my stock suspension

I think it needs to say " no coil overs " at least


cheers Richie

I think coilovers are ok to use, but it has to be in adition to stock torsion bars.

So by adding one more word we fix the ladderbar "problem" :Working stock spring design in stock location on a pan car. 

[Peter Shattock]

For what it’s worth I think it would be worth having a bigger range of records so that they appeal to a wider audience and encourage greater participation.
There are all sorts of people running all sorts of combinations out there and it would be fun to have a kind of matrix where you could look to see what times people have posted with what combinations in what cars.
Needless to say this could become quite large matrix with all the variables but, if for example if you had a 2276cc N/A street car which I suspect is a relatively common combination. It would be fun to see who has the fastest one and if you thought of adding nitrus to it then you could look to the next column and see who is the fastest with gas, next column for turbo etc. Then you might have columns for a 2276cc race car N/A, nitrus, turbo etc.
Perhaps you could have engine size (common sizes or bands perhaps) and power adders down the y axis and car types across the x axis with varying degrees of modification from stock ish street cars to a full cassis race cars.
Trond might not thank me for suggesting it as I suspect it’s a lot more work (that said he’s got plenty of time to think about it whilst sat on the beach), but I think it would be an interesting read and would help involve and perhaps inspire more people to make their cars quicker.
It could also be like a real world indicator as to how fast a particular car might / should go if they are looking at particular combination.
I’m sure there could be plenty of squabbling over the actual categories, but it would be good to make it inclusive rather than exclusive.
Peter