porsche power!

[nicolas]

OK, so i have thought about this more then once and i have tried to post it, but i can't really put it in words.

the idea i have is to 'make' a porsche out of a beetle or in my case my fastback. i am not talking about a german look, nor am i looking at the looks of a porsche. but i am looking for it's performance and handling. think more of a guy with a beetle looking at what porsche did in the late 60's early 70's
the idea i have is to make something similar in power (not really really high) and handling (quite good for it's time) of a late 60's porsche. no fancy RS or turbo. for instance my type 3 will not be used much more on the track as i will not fit a roll cage in it and the car will always be 200 - 300 kgs heavier compared to a beetle. But i do plan on taking it back a bit more on the road, with improved handling if possible.
so without saying what i have in mind, i give you a blank canvas to project your ideas and thoughts on.


ENJOY!

 

[speedwell]

you're talking about 911 power or 912 1600 90ch             
356 1600 C   55 kW/75 ch   
356 1600 SC   70 kW/95 ch   
356 Carrera 2   96 kW/130 ch   

[nicolas]

911 would be closer to a type3 i guess. 

[Zach Gomulka]

That's what I had in mind when I was tuning my old GTV. In the end I feel like it was right on par, if not slightly better than a stock 912. The powerband, hp/weight, and road holding was very similar.

I do miss driving that car! Owning it was another story though

[Jim Ratto]

Neat idea. Making a comfortable, capable, "all weather" car with ample power, sure-footed handling in all conditions, and like-stock VW reliability. Kind of my approach with my '67.

I think, number one, you're going to need to be conservative in almost every area. As you look at ways of improving performance, also look at how that mod is going to impact reliability or the day-to-day "live-a-bility" of driving the car. And also keep in mind, even if built conservatively, the car will require regular servicing. As you put the car together, keep in mind things like accessibility, will you want to add electrical accessories at a later date, weatherproofing, and engineering things to live.
As far as the motor goes, a nice tidy 90.5 x 82 that makes an honest, cool 150hp will definitely give you the best of all worlds, even in a Type 3. And also give a similar power to weight ratio as an early 911 in E or T tune. Probably better than the 911 actually. The 2110cc with 300-306' (262-268' @ 0.050"), around .470" at valve and high-airspeed 40 x 37.5 heads and 44mm carburetors will do this with ease. Don't go hog wild on heads or you will lose that top gear mid range snap that is needed for passing on highway.

As I recently put my '67 back together after paint, I kept a "GT car" mode in mind, specifically something like a 356 Carrera GT. All this played into how I wired the car, and making sure when it comes time to service stuff, it can be done without huge undertakings. The motor tune was already modeled after the Carrera. I recently drove the car home from OC back to where I live (about 70 miles one way) in pouring rain, stop and go and highway speed traffic. Having a sure footed car, with good wipers and a motor that can slog along in 1st gear at under 10 mph for 45 minutes made the trip home much better than had I been in some over-cammed, fair-weather only, prima donna that only knows perfect conditions. All that I missed was a working heater/defroster.

Cool idea, keep us posted.

[j-f]

Nice idea Nicolas. 

My first thought is the kind of tires you will have to use. You will have to find tires that give you the best balance between the front and rear without rubbing or having to use flares. It could looks awesome if the car was done in an IMSA way, but not the case here.
Going with adjustable shocks to be able to tune them to your desire.
Adjustable sway bar.
Urethane bushings should help as well.
The engine Jim said.
Driving lesson on a race track... 
Going to my place and test all that stuff on those twisty country roads we have here. I copilot 

[brian e]

Maybe the thread should be called "The ultimate aircooled daily driver"??

Pretty much the same as I was hoping to build with my '71 super.  I was thinking maybe even a mild 150hp type 4 for the long trip cooling.  I figure make everything work pretty good, instead of a couple things really good, and a couple lousy things. 

My list of "must haves" would include,
-Good bucket seats.  Stock VW seats have the lateral support of a park bench. 
-Seat heaters in the good seats
-really good tires
-very good smooth exhaust note.

I want something just like this car.  Still Cal-look, with some Porsche vibe.  Make it handle, stop, turn, and resonantly comfy, but keep it simple.


Brian

[Fiatdude]

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[modnrod]

I rekn I'm sort of on your wavelength Nicolas.

Handling wise you're talking shimmying around with a bit of body roll, a glorious sound out the back, and LOTS of wheel corrections through successive corners at less than 160kph! No mid-corner braking or you're into the trees, if you need to tighten lines you need MORE throttle and a wheel flick. Something just fast enough to feel it a bit, and handling just dangerous enough to make you concentrate!  Keep the tyres 165s on 5.5" rims, maybe 185/70s, no bigger or they will grip too much and you lose the "feel".

I was lucky enough many many years ago to get to drive a 1968 (I think?) 911, I think it was a 2.0L 6 NA. Just absolutely lovely, but felt a bit threatening at the same time. I can see why they sold so many, and why they became an icon.

Doing this in a Fastback is what you are trying to achieve maybe?
Reason No 1..............
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/_-hXjerSPMw" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/_-hXjerSPMw</a>
Reason No 2..............
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/kM_1KP24T-A" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/kM_1KP24T-A</a>

[Taylor]

Great perspective through Eau Rouge!!  Keep it to the floor and hold on.  

[lawrence]

Nicolas, I like your thinking. I wanted to make my beetle more like a sports car, so I made some modifications that make it handle corners well: original 356 lemmerz wheels, modern tread 185/65/15 tires, front sway bar, level ride height. I still want to add: new torsion bars and bushings, a rear camber compensator, oil filled front shocks, front disk brakes, and maybe some small driving lights.

Jim has the right idea as well. Having little things like good wipers, a tight steering box, and functioning brakes is important for comfortable driving. I replaced my steering box recently and the car is much nicer to drive. So much that I feel the torsion bars and bushings need to be replaced because the rear end feels soggy. Have fun and let us know what ideas you have.

[Zach Gomulka]

IRS would be mandatory.

The difference in ride quality and handling is immense. Also much more stable at speed.

[BeetleBug]

Hi Nicolas,

I have been looking for a one-car-do-it all kinda thing and spent a fair bit of time looking for a old Porsche. A good one is hard to find and not to forget that the prices has gone through the roof. On top of that we have the fact that everyone else have bought a old Porsche lately. Parts are stupidly expensive as well. So instead I focused my search toward finding a good and honest 1303S and that proved a lot worse than finding a good Porsche. After two years of searching and looking on several cars I had basically given up finding a good one when I got a tip from Jon (JHU) I called the guy and a few hours later it was in my garage. I drove it to the JPM Dyno Day happening in October before I parked it for the winter and started working on it. It has Kerscher disc brakes, Kerscher coil over kit with yellow Konis and Eibach springs, really comfy OMP seats, a grippy steering wheel, a tight gear shifter and a set of tires that makes it stick to the ground like it should. It is a inspiring but yet comfortable ride. It will get some new wheels with even stickier tires this winter and a Kamei spoiler up front. I will also keep on improving the handling until it is like I want it to be. The engine will be a rather mild 1915ccm with 100+hp. The gearbox is rebuilt and it got a 0.82 4th fitted for improved cruising comfort.

Here it is:



This is my inspiration:

[alex d]

IRS would be mandatory.

The difference in ride quality and handling is immense. Also much more stable at speed.

I have to say that once you've tried IRS it's really hard to go back to swing axles

[razoredge]

Pascal Pandelaar you are a legend! awesome car control.

[Jim Ratto]

Handling wise you're talking shimmying around with a bit of body roll, a glorious sound out the back, and LOTS of wheel corrections through successive corners at less than 160kph! No mid-corner braking or you're into the trees, if you need to tighten lines you need MORE throttle and a wheel flick. Something just fast enough to feel it a bit, and handling just dangerous enough to make you concentrate!  Keep the tyres 165s on 5.5" rims, maybe 185/70s, no bigger or they will grip too much and you lose the "feel".

Amen! 

[j-f]

That Porsche video is awesome!! 

I took a lap on the Francorchamp racetrack a while back in the passenger seat of the old VW cup car from the Close family. The car was not at his best after a 6 years hibernation and a recalcitrant gearbox, but it was a blast!

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/FYlm39VLMp0" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/FYlm39VLMp0</a>

Engine is a type4 2.4l about 215cv, Porsche gearbox, brakes and rearend. It's a 1303. It was top dog in his time.

[Sepi]

That is my idea as well with my -59 sleeper. The chassis was already done and finished when I bought this project and unfortunately I didn't choose to replace the swing to IRS. Maybe some day I'll do that and fit also the Mendeola front end.

[Rennsurfer]

Nicolas, that's a great idea... Porsche power in a Fastback. Perfect car for such a project.

[nicolas]

OK. thanks already for such a great input. i really like a lot of what is being said.
I do have some parts already sorted for this car so here is what i have so far.

engine-wise i am building a low revving 2007cc engine with an FK44, some ported 40X35 heads, a good CR of 10 and the DCNFs so i can all fit it as a type3 engine under the type3 lid. all this with a stock geared re-enforced and rebuild gearbox (alas swing axle) and it will stay this way for now. i do want to make it better at handling with a torsion bar and brace, but i am not sure what would be 'ideal' yet.
the shocks are adjustable spax and the front is being fitted with a set of dropped spindles for type3 and hopefully i will be able to fit the type3 torsion bar ai have as for now it won't fit due to the lowering.
the wheels will be the empi's with 185/70 vredesteins at the back (highly recommended for looks and performance) and at the front i have always ran 165/65's, but i always found them just a bit too small, so it has been OK, but maybe i will try a 185/60 or so tyre.
brakes have been the stock drums at the back with a set of Talbot brakes at the front, which have given me more then one headache to set up correctly, but now perform well and stop in a dime.
the interiors will stay with the original non supportive 'benchy' seats as again i want to keep the car as much as it is.
i do want to upgrade the handling quite a bit so it will be more 'predictable' and in order to do what the porsche does in the video 

and for reference here is a picture of the car, but i must admit is a hundred years old (silly you take pictures, but never of your own car…)

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[Jim Ratto]

Great looking car. Cosmetically, it's perfect.

Nicolas I was thinking this morning, I think the goal for cars like this. Let's say you get a phone call from somebody that needs you as quickly as you can get there, and they're 180 miles away or so. It's evening, let's say 9:30pm and storming rainstorm and the roads to assist your friend are not straight shot, flat super-highways.
So if you had a conventional modern car and your Porsche-esque VW Type 3, just to enjoy your unexpected trip in questionable conditions on a challenging series of roads, you'd choose your Volkswagen. Hope that makes sense.
 

[Fastbrit]

Back  in 1983 or so, a friend of mine had an early Fastback with a 2.2 911 motor on carbs, 901 gearbox and 356C brakes with 6in Fuchs all round. Was a fabulous package and one that always sticks in my memory.

[nicolas]

Back  in 1983 or so, a friend of mine had an early Fastback with a 2.2 911 motor on carbs, 901 gearbox and 356C brakes with 6in Fuchs all round. Was a fabulous package and one that always sticks in my memory.

hmmm. misa like that too. 

it would be something in that spirit yes. and what Jim said is also correct. it should be able to do what he described. and like kalle also said it maybe one car does all. the thing is that i only drove my car about a 1000kms last year. so that is nothing really. But i do miss driving it and it is on a yearly MOT, so it could and should be a daily driver (again). my concern is however the handling aspect.
i am currently looking at getting a different set of wheels for the front, but i don't want to deviate too much from the look it has now.

[Rennsurfer]

Back  in 1983 or so, a friend of mine had an early Fastback with a 2.2 911 motor on carbs, 901 gearbox and 356C brakes with 6in Fuchs all round. Was a fabulous package and one that always sticks in my memory.

THIS.

[mg]

Some nice vintage Porsche bits you are considering, at least make it out handle a fast 356.
Here is a Porsche/VW project that might kick butt...
http://flatsixes.com/cars/porsche-boxster/kharmann-ghia-body-boxster/

[j-f]

If they can do this with old Ford, Opel or even Peugeot, you should be able to do it with a VW  

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/Z10EWbcvNyw" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/Z10EWbcvNyw</a>

[guillaume]

[peejke]

Hey Nicolas,
great idea,
see ya soon

[mg]

Consider an engine from the last of the air cooled Porsches.
Mild 3.6 at 300 hp/260 torque with the 915 trans would be reliable, require little service and should last 100,000+ miles.

[nicolas]

Consider an engine from the last of the air cooled Porsches.
Mild 3.6 at 300 hp/260 torque with the 915 trans would be reliable, require little service and should last 100,000+ miles.

i must admit that ii have been looking at those engines, but my aim is a bit more 'conventional' and in a cal look tradition, if that means anything. so it's more 60's and 70's, the base of this car is made and is a type3 4.12 transmission (reinforced) and the engine is type1.
but this said i do like what direction you want to take this. MORE porsche power.