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Author Topic: The weight saving thread  (Read 251188 times)
benssp
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« on: May 06, 2008, 12:52:38 pm »

thought i'd start this, please post up anything you've done to your bug to save weight and what saving in kg/lb's
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BeetleBug
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« Reply #1 on: May 06, 2008, 13:20:22 pm »

thought i'd start this, please post up anything you've done to your bug to save weight and what saving in kg/lb's

Just removed ALL the asphalt in a 67 - all in all that was 23 kg. including the garbage bag.

Best rgs
BB
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benssp
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« Reply #2 on: May 06, 2008, 13:23:34 pm »

I know phil(beardie weirdie) has saved 400g a side by removing his jacking points
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Neil Davies
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« Reply #3 on: May 06, 2008, 13:39:42 pm »

I don't know how much weight it saved, but I chopped out most of the inside of my doors - just left the handle area and the edge of the big hole to strengthen it. You'd never know if I'd fitted doorcards! Wink
Phil's also used aluminium and titanium bolts on his car, and has race weight wings! Cheesy
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benssp
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« Reply #4 on: May 06, 2008, 14:03:06 pm »

phil and pete shattock have a weight saving obsession, I think pete removes his Fram filter forracing!
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BeetleBug
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« Reply #5 on: May 06, 2008, 14:32:52 pm »

phil and pete shattock have a weight saving obsession, I think pete removes his Fram filter forracing!

So if you do like them and take it ALL THE WAY how light will your pan car be?

 

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benssp
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« Reply #6 on: May 06, 2008, 14:39:48 pm »

petes car is about 600ish kilos Shocked
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BeetleBug
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« Reply #7 on: May 06, 2008, 14:59:20 pm »

petes car is about 600ish kilos Shocked

Maybe he can share with us what he has done to get the weight down so far. Tekken`s pan split race car was 595 kg last year with a "heavy" turbo engine and autocraft gearbox. I do believe that is about how far you can go with a pan car.

BB
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Bruce
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« Reply #8 on: May 06, 2008, 15:17:45 pm »

Tekken`s pan split race car was 595 kg last year with a "heavy" turbo engine and autocraft gearbox. I do believe that is about how far you can go with a pan car.
You need to have a look at the SSB.
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BeetleBug
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« Reply #9 on: May 06, 2008, 15:31:45 pm »

Tekken`s pan split race car was 595 kg last year with a "heavy" turbo engine and autocraft gearbox. I do believe that is about how far you can go with a pan car.
You need to have a look at the SSB.


If I remember correctly the SSB was 1400lbs when it did the 11.03/122 mph run?
« Last Edit: May 06, 2008, 15:50:27 pm by BeetleBug » Logged

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Neil Davies
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« Reply #10 on: May 06, 2008, 16:32:11 pm »

petes car is about 600ish kilos Shocked

Maybe he can share with us what he has done to get the weight down so far. Tekken`s pan split race car was 595 kg last year with a "heavy" turbo engine and autocraft gearbox. I do believe that is about how far you can go with a pan car.

BB


Little Pete has gone a bit mad - reducing the thickness of the gears in the gearbox, drilling holes in everything bolt on, but leaving the body as Wolfsburg intended!  Shocked Original wings, doors and everything! Cheesy Proper work of art...
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Phil West
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« Reply #11 on: May 06, 2008, 16:40:03 pm »

thought i'd start this, please post up anything you've done to your bug to save weight and what saving in kg/lb's

Oh dear I could spend some serious time on this thread!  But in brief mine is 1300lbs 590KG.  I've not drilled the main body or pan - except the jacking points which I felt were not useful as so old, and also were a wind resistance..  Everything that bolts on or removes in any way has been removed or drilled or replaced with lighter.  Just apply it to everything on the car.  Bought different handles to find the lightest, use nasty tinware as thinner, drill the ignition key/door strikers, obviously all the nuts, bolts and washers.  356 generator is the lightest - hope to sheath it in ally and ball mill the case like Porsche 550.  Cut the tops off the shocks, buy ally shocks, ally trans mounts, ally traction bar, drilled linkage/arms.  Anything you can see that comes off - remove and drill.  I love swarf!  Incidentally ally floorpan bolts save 324grams.  Drilled my headrest and seat bases.  Still looking to have the rear axle nuts made in titanium.  Also the rocker adjustment nuts.  Even bought two differing sets of front lights to choose the lightest chrome surrounds.  There's loads more but I'll be here forever and I need my pillar drill time.  Overall the car still looks roughly stock and not cut out at all.  Oh and I must mention aircraft wiring, much lighter.

Cheers ben.  By the way do you have any Scat stickers at SSP - small 2 inch?
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Phil West
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« Reply #12 on: May 06, 2008, 17:05:03 pm »

thought i'd start this, please post up anything you've done to your bug to save weight and what saving in kg/lb's

My top 4 easy choices would be:

1)glass.  get rid.  Super duper heavy
2)wings - 22lb to save using fibreglass.  Also remove running boards and bumpers.
3)rotational weight - swap the wheels, brakes, calipers, studs, washers, nuts, tyres all for the lightest
4)battery/starter/alternator
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Zach Gomulka
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« Reply #13 on: May 06, 2008, 17:21:14 pm »

Good thread Smiley

I lightened up the metal behind the rear side panels, just fit one up and you can see there is a lot of metal that can be removed. Put the panel back on, and no one is the wiser Cool
Remove the center rear seat belt thing that is welded to the underside of the parcel shelf. Heavy.
Every last thing associated with the heater.
Use fiberglass, plexiglass, and aluminium liberally.

The goal for my '67 is to have it down to 1500lbs (682kg) with me in it, race weight... and NOT have it look like it has been gutted like a fish.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2008, 02:19:24 am by Zach Gomulka » Logged

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ottobros
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« Reply #14 on: May 06, 2008, 17:28:50 pm »

petes car is about 600ish kilos Shocked
do you have pictures of this car
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Fastbrit
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« Reply #15 on: May 06, 2008, 17:38:23 pm »

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BeetleBug
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« Reply #16 on: May 06, 2008, 17:43:09 pm »

Beardie - thank you for sharing! I have only heard about your car and your work but unfortunately never seen it live. I hope I soon will have the pleasure.

590kg - well, got something to reach for there that`s for sure.

BB
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Jim Ratto
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« Reply #17 on: May 06, 2008, 20:54:18 pm »

this is a good post.
Weren't the original cal-look cars stripped of any superfulous fat? Huh Sarge? HUH?
I see the cars that grace magazines as cal-look cars as being too complex and too fat. I think guys building cars here in the States need to work on not hanging so much "stuff" on their cars, and not yet even worry about gun-drilling and shaving weight here and there. My own car is too heavy in my opinion. I don't know what it weighs, but I have not paid enough attention to saving weight when modifying the car. Oil system alone on my car, between the big Berg sump (that I would run, no matter the weight, for engine's well being), the heavy cloth-covered-stainless braid AN-8 oil lines, the steel AN-8 fittings, the heavy Setrab cooler... I imagine it all adds 30-40lbs to the curb weight (dry). Heavy fake BRM's, heavy 205/65 tires, Berg traction bar, Berg intermediate mount, stock drums.... in an effort to make things stay put it's going to add weight. Unless I was to think before I just bolted parts on "out of the box"
If I were to re-do another hotrod approach on a Bug, I'd look for even the small places to save lbs. Take a look at Ferdinand Piech's campaign in the 1960's with the Porsche cars. Every piece of the racecars had a head engineer that was responsible to trim as much fat as they could, without jeopardizing durability. Look at a 1960's Porsche racecar.... holes everywhere. Even the ignition key. Piech demanded that the wiper switch on the dash of the 907 have its retaining nut machined down thickness wise to save 1/2 a gram or something. They resorted to beryllium for the brake rotors (ungodly expensive and dust was deadly poisonous).
Instead of impressing everybody with how much "stuff" can be hung on a car, why not impress everyone with how quickly the car goes, stops, corners, and how long your parts live?
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Jim Ratto
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« Reply #18 on: May 06, 2008, 21:21:59 pm »

here are some ideas aside from what has been mentioned..

if bumpers are necessary or "desired" drill lower brakcets (On 1967 & down)
replace steel girder of Berg traction bar with aluminum oval tube
deburr engine case(inside and out) and inside rocker chambers of heads and trans case
minimize wiring in car, replace ignition switch with simple on-off rocker for power and one way rocker for starter
deburr and trim rear lower shock boss on swingaxle tube
deburr and polish trailing arms (front suspension) and pitman arm off steering box
gundrill brake drums i.e. Ron Lummus
open backing plates up
gundrill pedal stems on brake and clutch, reduce square area of pedal pad section
gundrill face of accelerator pedal
gundrill parking brake, door check rods
gundrill front hood hinges, delete springs, delete decklid spring, remove "louvered" area inside rear air grill
gundrill metal "body" portion of brake shoes
gundrill all wiper motor and linkage mounts
lightest wheels that are legal for street
gundrill carb linkage bracket (if applicable) or use lighter push/pull, drill coil bracket, alternator strap, alternator pulley
manicure intake manifolds to minimum material up near carbs
17mm wrench size 12mm nuts in place of 19mm in all places applicable.
11mm wrench size 8mm nuts in place of 13mm in all places applicable
more to think about later.




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Peter Shattock
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« Reply #19 on: May 06, 2008, 22:02:38 pm »

As you have all obviously realised weight saving is certainly a way of making the most of your engine and gearbox combination, but you might just like to look at the cost benefits once you have done the obvious ditching interior, bumpers, glass and had some fun with some hole saws. Say your car weighs 1600lbs and you have 160hp thatís 10lbs per 1hp. 10lbs is easy to find when you're unbolting bumpers and the like but when your into one off fabrication of parts and exotic metals like mag, titanium, inconol and even ali its very easy to run up some nasty bills. Needless to say if youíre really going for it and budget is not an issue get stuck in to the hp chase and the weight loss program but I think there comes a point financially where you want to go back to the motor rather than the weight of the car.

Also one other thing weight loss is great for performance but its not so good for our little rear engine cars when your going through the traps at 110-120 mph on a breesy day so a bit of weight to keep the bloody things on the ground is not all bad in my book and that is coming from some one who has spent far to much money on reducing the weight of the car.

Like most things in life itís about striking a balance, but don't let me dampen your enthusiasm with the hole saws!

Peter
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« Reply #20 on: May 06, 2008, 22:44:36 pm »

I crew chief for the BAD BEHAVIOR S/G car of Daniel Kurtzman and that car weighs 1460lbs no driver. It is all steel.  We ditched the glass and went plexi, run ercos, aluminum beam, 1 race trim seat, 5 point lummus 4130 bar, engine has two small squirrel fans and a small alternator. Door panels are aluminum. Headlights removed replaced with plexi covers. Gas tank removed replaced with 1 gal. fuel cell. Thats about it.
   



                     
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Zach Gomulka
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« Reply #21 on: May 07, 2008, 02:25:19 am »

Also one other thing weight loss is great for performance but its not so good for our little rear engine cars when your going through the traps at 110-120 mph on a breesy day so a bit of weight to keep the bloody things on the ground is not all bad in my book and that is coming from some one who has spent far to much money on reducing the weight of the car.

I agree with you, that is why my car will have the trans raised slightly to get the car (and what little weight there is) down a little more... hopefully it will be stable enough for mid to high 11's... Wink
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« Reply #22 on: May 07, 2008, 08:44:12 am »

On my old Oval I managed to shave off about 30 lb per door by ditching the winder mechanisms and making a simple hand slider mech. The glass was ditched for perspex and the quarter lights were also ditched in favour of perspex. I ground the chrome off the door handles so they were bare aluminium and polished them to look chrome. I then took the hole saw to all of the metal hidden behind the door panel. The difference in before and after was incredible. Picking up a complete stock door requires strength/hernia op. Post diet, the door could be picked up with one hand Cool
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« Reply #23 on: May 07, 2008, 10:06:07 am »

...Also one other thing weight loss is great for performance but its not so good for our little rear engine cars when your going through the traps at 110-120 mph on a breesy day so a bit of weight to keep the bloody things on the ground is not all bad in my book and that is coming from some one who has spent far to much money on reducing the weight of the car...

On the plus side though as you add power the advantage then becomes that you can then put weight back in where you need it, mainly further forward and lower. Getting the weight out of the top of the car like the glass can only help top end stability. That said it would be a shame having bought all that titanium to bolt lead bars to the pan, drilled or not...

 
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Phil West
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« Reply #24 on: May 07, 2008, 10:08:57 am »

As you have all obviously realised weight saving is certainly a way of making the most of your engine and gearbox combination, but you might just like to look at the cost benefits once you have done the obvious ditching interior, bumpers, glass and had some fun with some hole saws. Say your car weighs 1600lbs and you have 160hp thatís 10lbs per 1hp. 10lbs is easy to find when you're unbolting bumpers and the like but when your into one off fabrication of parts and exotic metals like mag, titanium, inconol and even ali its very easy to run up some nasty bills. Needless to say if youíre really going for it and budget is not an issue get stuck in to the hp chase and the weight loss program but I think there comes a point financially where you want to go back to the motor rather than the weight of the car.

Also one other thing weight loss is great for performance but its not so good for our little rear engine cars when your going through the traps at 110-120 mph on a breesy day so a bit of weight to keep the bloody things on the ground is not all bad in my book and that is coming from some one who has spent far to much money on reducing the weight of the car.

Like most things in life itís about striking a balance, but don't let me dampen your enthusiasm with the hole saws!

Peter


Wise words mate.  I only have 170 horse or so so didn't mind going a bit lighter.  If I had double that i would be more reluctant to take weight off.  So far I've only reached 113mph and the car has always felt very safe and secure at the top end.  Still it has been a bit pricey - however there's nothing like adding weight to the mix whenever someone needs to replace a worn part or needs a different spec item.  Definitely worth thinking about eg if you need new shocks - make sure the ones you buy are lighter than the ones you have!  Do that every time and suddenly your ETs are improving bit by bit.

And congrats on the 12.1!
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alex d
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« Reply #25 on: May 07, 2008, 10:13:35 am »

aluminium cylinders would certainly make for a lighter engine...


by the way, didn't some of the early short wheel base 911s have a  ballast in the nose for better weight distribution?
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Frallan
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« Reply #26 on: May 07, 2008, 15:18:46 pm »

Hi,

I really like this thread. Weight is a key to why our beloved cars are behaving the way they do. Both how the handle on start and how they can perform so good with "limited" horsepower.
I got in to VWs just for this reason. Me and my partner were working building lightweight aircrafts.
With the flight designers and engineers and material available, we decided to build a much lighter version of car than at the the time very popular Volvo dragsters. They started at 450 kg.
We did not decide immediatley on engine until we saw this wheel lifting 1958 beetle called St Moritz Fashion in 1976.
Now we had a clear target with the lightest possible engine....story goes on. Anyway,the car weighed 300 kg and had almost as much HP as the Volvos.
So what am I saying? I love this focus on weight.

BUT in class racing the safety is well defined and not so when you drive on the streets or not so defined like Blackraces.
It actually hurts me to see so many cars without even a roll bar.
That is to me a minimum if you dragrace.
If you also drive the streets with a potential car, you need a cage and linked up to your front end.
Please consider it seriously.

Also be very careful with drilling a little bit too much or lightening anything that could be safety related.

That is not my "just my few cents" but rather input on a much higher value. Your well being.
 
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Bruce
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« Reply #27 on: May 07, 2008, 15:40:21 pm »

Tekken`s pan split race car was 595 kg last year with a "heavy" turbo engine and autocraft gearbox. I do believe that is about how far you can go with a pan car.
You need to have a look at the SSB.


If I remember correctly the SSB was 1400lbs when it did the 11.03/122 mph run?
I think that's with the driver.

Mark told me that he spent some time at the auto parts store looking at headlights.  He found some that were 100% plastic.  Very difficult to find.  I've only found 1 plastic H4 over the years, and it was that odd French yellow.

if bumpers are necessary or "desired" drill lower brakcets (On 1967 & down)
Aluminium.
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Phil West
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« Reply #28 on: May 07, 2008, 16:09:52 pm »

here are some ideas aside from what has been mentioned..

if bumpers are necessary or "desired" drill lower brakcets (On 1967 & down)




I've replace the bumpers with ally tbars, then cut off the excess ally past the mounting holes, then drilled the inner flat bar, then hollowed out the actual tbar from the bottom up.  Finally mounted with just one shortened ally bolt and smaller ally washer
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Casey
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« Reply #29 on: May 07, 2008, 16:19:30 pm »

Saving weight has been a priority in my car too. I have only the bare necessities. It dose not looked cut up though. I left all original glass too. I did weight it all and came up with 130-140lbs I took out of it. Should be good for 2 tenths or so. We always talk about the "car" weight, well look at the beer drinkin' drivers!!! The car doesnít go down the track by itself. I have been trying to lean down myself. Lost 20lb over a year or so. If you want your fast time slip, I vote John Rayburn as your driver!! Sorry John I couldn't resist. Casey
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