Stroker engines...

[bugnut68]

I'm looking to put together another engine mainly for bracket-racing but some street driving, too... just looking into what's considered "worth it" for strokers...

I've considered going the 76 x 90.5mm route, but some say you may as well go all out and go at least 82mm stroke.  I don't have B pistons at the moment, but would look to trade my A pistons for a set if it were possible?

Just curious as to whether or not I could build a nice little viable mill using a 76mm crank that would considerably faster than my current Engle 100, Kadron-carbed 1776

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated!

[Bruce]

Trying to build a stroker engine using A pistons is foolish economy.  You create a TON of work, while nothing fits the engine.  If you get B pistons and use a 78-82mm crank, the engine builds almost as easy as a 1600.  All the tin fits, exhaust systems fit, linkage is the right length, head studs fit, pushrod tubes, etc.

[OgCalLook]

Trying to build a stroker engine using A pistons is foolish economy.  You create a TON of work, while nothing fits the engine.  If you get B pistons and use a 78-82mm crank, the engine builds almost as easy as a 1600.  All the tin fits, exhaust systems fit, linkage is the right length, head studs fit, pushrod tubes, etc.

X2
 
Go with 82 stroke - stock VW or 912 length rods - that motor will snap hard (fast piston speed, no stall at TDC)
Spend your money on heads!!! and choose your cam based on what the heads flow. 

[Jim Ratto]

first stroker motor I built when I was 18 was 74mm crank x 94mm "A" pistons. I didn't know what "B" pistons were. I had bought the 94's for a 1914, then got a deal on a Demello 74, started putting it together..... what should have been a straight forward motor.... Engle 125, CB 044 Magnums, Vw rods.... turned into a machine work money pit. Special barrel spacers, special pushrods, etc...etc...etc..  then tin didn't fit, then fan shroud had gaps at sides, then.... then...then
Not that B pistons are perfect for 74 stroke either. Never built a 76-er stroker. I can tell you B pistons work like stockers on 78mm with VW rods.

On sheep's 1800, we are using 88mm x 74mm, had to run .120" under cylinders to get deck @ .065". It is running ratio rockers so it will need custom cut pushrods anyway.

Not sure... with a 90.5 bore, an A "may" work.... but you're definitely going to have some positive deck....and the need for barrel spacers. I think you're better going 78, get some B pistons and go that route.
But there's all different ways around the issue.... head cc, cut tops of barrels, etc etc etc (all more work, more time, more money....less cc )....  that's why building a good VW engine takes about 80% prep and mock up, 10% building and 10% tuning.

can't beat 2165cc for ease of assembly and power.... 

[DKK Ted]

Hey Ryan, YES go with a an 82mm a nice cam and yes on the heads, talk with Jeff Deham, a very nice guy, very reasonable, and heads that work great. I'm using his heads now, works great. I myself WAS going to use my 86mm Crank but desided to go with a new custom 83mm stroke from DPR just like my old one which by the way am still using now. that crank I ran on my car and ran it hard everyday 50 miles round trip back and forth to Bergs everyday with no problems, with BIG heads and cam. I would use a 5.5 rod or VW rod length. But once you build it, you'll never go backwards, trust me. Take car buddy. Hey ya coming to BUG-IN??

[bugnut68]

Hi Ted!  Long time no chat.  One other question, do the A or B pistons share the same cylinders, or do the B pistons have different cylinders to go with them?  I'm thinking I may go the route of B pistons and bigger stroke, ultimately... just need to know if I can start seeking out someone with a set of  B pistons for sale or trade.  I'm heavy into the research phase, so the more info I get the better...

Not sure about Bug-IN... my dad's skipping out this year, so not sure if I'm going to make it or not... I may go to Sacramento at the end of May, though... still planning and deciding.  The plus side to Sac is I could drive down and bring more stuff back.  If I go to Bug In I can't drag much home with me on the airplane

[181]

yes the cylinders are the same, only pistons are different.

[lawrence]

If/when I build another hi-po vw engine, it will be a 2165. I just like the sound of keeping the stroke a little smaller that the 82/84/86mm. The engine will rev up fast and still make more low end torque then a 69mm crank. Some might disagree. 94's are the way to go because they increase displacement and unshroud the valves at the same time. Win win situation. A nice d-port is good for the street and I would most likely run 42x37.5 valves so the engine can breath, but it might be worth it to run 40x37.5 for a lighter valve train A webcam 109 or fk-45 might be cool just to try something new. You can never go wrong with the webcam 86b. Compression ratio from 9.0 to 9.5. IDAs of course. Damn maybe I sould tear my 1914 down.

[Jim Ratto]

If/when I build another hi-po vw engine, it will be a 2165. I just like the sound of keeping the stroke a little smaller that the 82/84/86mm. The engine will rev up fast and still make more low end torque then a 69mm crank. Some might disagree. 94's are the way to go because they increase displacement and unshroud the valves at the same time. Win win situation. A nice d-port is good for the street and I would most likely run 42x37.5 valves so the engine can breath, but it might be worth it to run 40x37.5 for a lighter valve train A webcam 109 or fk-45 might be cool just to try something new. You can never go wrong with the webcam 86b. Compression ratio from 9.0 to 9.5. IDAs of course. Damn maybe I sould tear my 1914 down.

my buddy Richard has a 2165, CB 2246 cam (Engle 130-ish), d-port 42 x 37 heads and IDAs from what I hear, it runs real well.
I'm still thrilled with my 2165, as far as power available, and it's agreeable nature. It's really a dual personality setup... docile like a 40IDF Engle 110 thing, but if you give it some stick, all hell breaks loose just after 3700 or so.
Once you put some arm in a VW, it is so hard to go back to 69mm.

[Jim Ratto]

If/when I build another hi-po vw engine, it will be a 2165. I just like the sound of keeping the stroke a little smaller that the 82/84/86mm. The engine will rev up fast and still make more low end torque then a 69mm crank. Some might disagree. 94's are the way to go because they increase displacement and unshroud the valves at the same time. Win win situation. A nice d-port is good for the street and I would most likely run 42x37.5 valves so the engine can breath, but it might be worth it to run 40x37.5 for a lighter valve train A webcam 109 or fk-45 might be cool just to try something new. You can never go wrong with the webcam 86b. Compression ratio from 9.0 to 9.5. IDAs of course. Damn maybe I sould tear my 1914 down.

my buddy Richard has a 2165, CB 2246 cam (Engle 130-ish), d-port 42 x 37 heads and IDAs from what I hear, it runs real well.
I'm still thrilled with my 2165, as far as power available, and it's agreeable nature. It's really a dual personality setup... docile like a 40IDF Engle 110 thing, but if you give it some stick, all hell breaks loose just after 3700 or so.
Once you put some arm in a VW, it is so hard to go back to 69mm.

and if you've gone out in a flyweight Bug, with high strung motor, and close gears (1835, IDAs, K8, K87, K89, 4.37, 1.214th), and got your thrills, imagine that same grunt, but with every day-ability of tamer powerband, and gears you can drive to next county with.
Of course, go too far (stroke), without camming it and giving it some good ports, and you've got a truck motor. Peel away power @ bottom end with too much cam and port, or take it away at top with stroke, restriction and too little camshaft.

[bugnut68]

I appreciate the advice provided here, it's giving me some good ideas.  What are folks' thoughts on CNC ported heads?  I've got my eye on CB's heads and was wondering what sort of results folks had with them...

[OgCalLook]

Heads - that will fill 5 pages up with opinions!

Like Ratto said, as you increase port and cam size, it moves the power up the RPM range.

My current build, I went with Tims stage 2 - 42x37 043 castings - the ports aren't so big that you lose port velocity (bottom end) but on the bench they flowed 190cfm @ .550"
It should be good to 6500 -7000 with a K-8.

So it comes down to where (RPM) you want your power.

[Peter]

I am still smiling every time i drive my bug
a lot like jim says: docile when you want , but if you put your foot in it it flies
I ve suprised a few of my buddies like that
first few minutes when you warm it up..driving slow;
then the co driver asks : is this the engine your talking about for soo long?Its not that fast at all
then I floored it and i said : NO! this is! ...
and then I threw a belt

[Jim Ratto]

I appreciate the advice provided here, it's giving me some good ideas.  What are folks' thoughts on CNC ported heads?  I've got my eye on CB's heads and was wondering what sort of results folks had with them...

there is no shortage of guys running them. Lots of fast street cars running the big Wedgeport heads, though I believe more overall power can be had from a handworked head by someone with experience under their belt. Jeff Denham is my suggestion. He'll cater to whatever you want the motor to do, set up springs, match your intakes, etc...etc...etc. His heads have been on ther fastest street cars for a long time now. That being said, remember, my friend bought a pair of CNC 40 x 35 CB heads, modified chambers slightly, bolted them to 8.4:1 1914cc, Engle VZ15 and modded kadrons and made over 139 wheel horsepower.
A future 2332cc I am doing for a friend of mine is being built around a pair of their Ultra Wedge Port things and a very aggressive steel billet cam. It will probably be on the ragged edge of streetable.
I don't want to start the 5 page debate on heads, but if it were me, I'd call Jeff.

[bugnut68]

Yeah, I realize that cylinder heads discussions are a huge can of worms...  Didn't think that through before posting it.  Another question I have is what kinds of parts do some of you experienced engine builders recommend I seek through swap meet deals?  I'd hate to go out and buy what I think is a great deal on some major engine component and then find out later it's crap or something... I'm just curious as to what may be items to seek secondhand... bear in mind that the car this is going into is very limited use and by no stretch going to be a high-mileage machine.  That's what my 1776cc currently in place is for.

I'm planning on hitting up Sacramento BOR at the end of May, and am trying to compile a 'Wish List." 

[Jim Ratto]

Yeah, I realize that cylinder heads discussions are a huge can of worms...  Didn't think that through before posting it.  Another question I have is what kinds of parts do some of you experienced engine builders recommend I seek through swap meet deals?  I'd hate to go out and buy what I think is a great deal on some major engine component and then find out later it's crap or something... I'm just curious as to what may be items to seek secondhand... bear in mind that the car this is going into is very limited use and by no stretch going to be a high-mileage machine.  That's what my 1776cc currently in place is for.

I'm planning on hitting up Sacramento BOR at the end of May, and am trying to compile a 'Wish List." 

I've known guys that have found some pretty rad heads @ swap meets. My buddy Soda found a set of nasty (in a good way) welded 44 x 37 oval-port VW casting heads from a big Hawaiian guy. We looked them over for blowout from cylinders, and cracks, and they looked good to go. He got 'em cheap. We put a set of SS valves in them, new springs and had the seats cut. The guides were good. Heads can be a good thing, because most things that go wrong with them, can be fixed, replaced etc.... and usually for not a lot of $. sure, you could end up with turds....  I'd look to make sure they aren't flycut a mile, fins aren't missing, no cracks, no devcon, no blowout holes around cylinder sealing surface. Sheep had my old Pauter heads brought back from the dead, then blew the sealing surface on them, had that fixed, sold them, then bates emails me and tells me they're on Samba a year or so ago.... they were originally done in the late 1980's!
Cranks can be iffy... Soda made that mistake... bought a blue one. Think it was an Okrasa 84mm? Some guy in Alameda had it, he bought it, and one cheek and C/w were purple... a sure sign it got killed.
I'd stay away from cases.... too iffy, unless the guy will let you torque it together and check for daylight between saddles on # 2 and check crush with a set of known STD OD mains. Then again, I've come across some cherry std dual reilef cases that made for great motors.
Stuff in packages (new) should be safe, if it's known stuff... you'll see guys selling Berg stuff still in packages sometimes.
Virgin carb manifolds, headers, mufflers, can all be cleaned up and put back in service fairly easily and cheaply.
Carbs can be a total crapshoot... some guys get lucky, other guys get screwed... twisted throttle shafts, missing parts, electrolysis... all bad news
I think word of mouth sales among guys you know are probably best.... good luck with your search

Jim

[bugnut68]

Yeah, I realize that cylinder heads discussions are a huge can of worms...  Didn't think that through before posting it.  Another question I have is what kinds of parts do some of you experienced engine builders recommend I seek through swap meet deals?  I'd hate to go out and buy what I think is a great deal on some major engine component and then find out later it's crap or something... I'm just curious as to what may be items to seek secondhand... bear in mind that the car this is going into is very limited use and by no stretch going to be a high-mileage machine.  That's what my 1776cc currently in place is for.

I'm planning on hitting up Sacramento BOR at the end of May, and am trying to compile a 'Wish List." 

I've known guys that have found some pretty rad heads @ swap meets. My buddy Soda found a set of nasty (in a good way) welded 44 x 37 oval-port VW casting heads from a big Hawaiian guy. We looked them over for blowout from cylinders, and cracks, and they looked good to go. He got 'em cheap. We put a set of SS valves in them, new springs and had the seats cut. The guides were good. Heads can be a good thing, because most things that go wrong with them, can be fixed, replaced etc.... and usually for not a lot of $. sure, you could end up with turds....  I'd look to make sure they aren't flycut a mile, fins aren't missing, no cracks, no devcon, no blowout holes around cylinder sealing surface. Sheep had my old Pauter heads brought back from the dead, then blew the sealing surface on them, had that fixed, sold them, then bates emails me and tells me they're on Samba a year or so ago.... they were originally done in the late 1980's!
Cranks can be iffy... Soda made that mistake... bought a blue one. Think it was an Okrasa 84mm? Some guy in Alameda had it, he bought it, and one cheek and C/w were purple... a sure sign it got killed.
I'd stay away from cases.... too iffy, unless the guy will let you torque it together and check for daylight between saddles on # 2 and check crush with a set of known STD OD mains. Then again, I've come across some cherry std dual reilef cases that made for great motors.
Stuff in packages (new) should be safe, if it's known stuff... you'll see guys selling Berg stuff still in packages sometimes.
Virgin carb manifolds, headers, mufflers, can all be cleaned up and put back in service fairly easily and cheaply.
Carbs can be a total crapshoot... some guys get lucky, other guys get screwed... twisted throttle shafts, missing parts, electrolysis... all bad news
I think word of mouth sales among guys you know are probably best.... good luck with your search

Jim

Good advice, Jim... much appreciated!  As they say, part of the thrill is the hunt, eh? ;-)