Engine and parts help... mild road engine project

[Nico86]

While looking at the crank, searching for the part number, I noticed it's only written "VW 14 XD" and "51B". Is that a F type crank ? (It also have directional oil grooves on the journals).

[Nico86]

While looking at the crank, searching for the part number, I noticed it's only written "VW 14 XD" and "51B". Is that a F type crank ? (It also have directional oil grooves on the journals).

 

[Nico86]

The project is to build a "mild" road engine. I want something reliable that I can drive when I want and where I want, I almost never drive on highways, most of the time on mountain/countryside roads. That's where I need a lot of advices and help from you guys to have something fun to drive, pleasant and reliable for my first engine build. 

So after reading all my books and some internet stuff, here are the few ideas I have using the parts I collected... In RED are things I need help with, it may seems stupid questions sometimes, but I prefer ask before buying. Don't hesitate to comment !

Crankshaft
Stock 69mm 'F' type crank
8 dowels flywheel
counterweighted ?

Rods
Stock VW 311B rods
shot-penned with heavy duty bolts ?

Heads
Stock 040 VW heads
spark plugs inserts
2mm machined chambers for a 8,5:1 compression rate
35,5 and 32mm valves
bigger valves ?

Camshaft
Help needed !
Engle W110 ?
Straight-cut timing gears ?

Lifters
Stock or lightweigth ?

Pushrods
Stock or heavy duty ones ?

Rockers
Stock rockers, stock ratio 1,1:1
Bolt-up kit

Valves
35.5 and 32mm stainless steel valves
Single heavy duty springs and heavy duty retainers

Case
VW magnesium case, dual oil relief, line boring, spot faced
Heavy duty nuts and studs ? Shuffle pins ?

Pistons and cylinders
90,5mm Mahle kit with forged pistons
Heavy duty wrist pin ?

Carbs
Weber IDFs ?

Fuel
Stock or electric fuel pump ?
Regulator ?
Bigger diameter fuel lines ?

Ignition
Bosch 009 + blue coil
Spark plugs ?

Oil
Full flow + stock cooler
Additional sump plate ?
External oil cooler ?

Exhaust and Air-cooling still need to read some things.

[DKK Ted]

On the crank, yes on counterweight for sure, rods, for that size motor, stock VW rods will be fine, 40X35.5 will work great, then maybe go to better rods, the W110 cam is a good choice, will work great. Straight cut gears will help with side thrust, and will sound cool. Lighten the flywheel to 12LBs, quiker rev's. Good stock German lifter's or the Scats, I use the Scats with no problem, but had Steve Long do his magic to them. They work! Heavy duty nuts and shuffle pins, don't need it. The wrist pins that come with the 90.5 are fine. 40 IDF's carb will work good. Can run IDA's but will take some tuning. Fuel pump is up to you, if you want to clean up the look, then run an electric pump W/ reg. if not, stock is fine. Sarge from DKP runs stock on IDA's with no problems. Spark plugs, need more info, are they stock regular reach or long reach or 12mm long or short reach?? Oil sump is always good, 1 1/2qt or Berg 3 1/2qt sump. Oil cooler, depends where you live, don't think you need it with that CR, but again will not hurt. Oil does need to get warm, 180*-210* is fine. This sounds like a nice motor. My first motor was a 1776cc W/E110 cam Rimco super rods Auto-Craft heads, 40X35.5. Used 42 DCNF's, ran awesome, but then went to IDA's, worked even better. Good luck on your build, hope this info helps. Just keep reading, I'm sure they'll be ther posts after this one.   
Forgot, Chromoly push rods for sure, NOT stock.

One more think, what ever the combo "Balance the whole thing".

Ted

[nicolas]

The project is to build a "mild" road engine. I want something reliable that I can drive when I want and where I want, I almost never drive on highways, most of the time on mountain/countryside roads. That's where I need a lot of advices and help from you guys to have something fun to drive, pleasant and reliable for my first engine build. 

So after reading all my books and some internet stuff, here are the few ideas I have using the parts I collected... In RED are things I need help with, it may seems stupid questions sometimes, but I prefer ask before buying. Don't hesitate to comment !
this is only what i would do. just for now, until you can afford more, you'll want more later i am sure
Crankshaft
Stock 69mm 'F' type crank
8 dowels flywheel
counterweighted ?
depends on the rpms, but balancing is good

Rods
Stock VW 311B rods
shot-penned with heavy duty bolts ?
these are OK, just makes sure they are not coloured and the bushes are good. if funds allow a replacement set
Heads
Stock 040 VW heads
spark plugs inserts
2mm machined chambers for a 8,5:1 compression rate
35,5 and 32mm valves
bigger valves ?
keep what you have and make the most out of that 70 - 80hp should be doable with those, maybe more. heads are expensive save you rupies for the bigger engine you want later. i would up the CR a bit and flycut the heads 1mm
Camshaft
Help needed !
Engle W110 ?
Straight-cut timing gears ?
yep, w110 is good.   straightcuts if you like noise and want to impress more, it won't go faster

Lifters
Stock or lightweigth ?
stock weight is good and works with a w110 or maybe a VZ15
Pushrods
Stock or heavy duty ones ?
i used cromoly in my engine, but i heard of people getting away with aluminium. but cheap insurance and you need to recut them anyway
Rockers
Stock rockers, stock ratio 1,1:1
Bolt-up kit

Valves
35.5 and 32mm stainless steel valves
Single heavy duty springs and heavy duty retainers
yep

Case
VW magnesium case, dual oil relief, line boring, spot faced
Heavy duty nuts and studs ? Shuffle pins ?
No need for shuflle pins in this combo, fullflow is a better idea here

Pistons and cylinders
90,5mm Mahle kit with forged pistons
Heavy duty wrist pin ?
the ones supplied with the pistons are a-OK
Carbs
Weber IDFs ?
40 webers,40 dells, kadrons,  

Fuel
Stock or electric fuel pump ?
Regulator ?
Bigger diameter fuel lines ?
stock is good, electric pumps make noise and stock works great
Ignition
Bosch 009 + blue coil
Spark plugs ?
you'll need sparkplugs. bosch 009 is good, 010, 019 as well
Oil
Full flow + stock cooler
Additional sump plate ?
External oil cooler ?

Exhaust and Air-cooling still need to read some things.
fullflow yes, extra cooler is optional, but not necessary if all works well, but add a nice sump that is extra cooling right there, 1 3/8 exhast will do and you can use stock heaterboxes, maybe a 1 1/2

hope this helsp a bit, like i said this is what i would do

[Nico86]

One more think, what ever the combo "Balance the whole thing".

Ted

Thanks for the infos Ted 

keep what you have and make the most out of that 70 - 80hp should be doable with those, maybe more. heads are expensive save you rupies for the bigger engine you want later. i would up the CR a bit and flycut the heads 1mm

Thanks for the infos nicolas I'm sure after I'll taste a little more HPs in the engine I'll want more and built a bigger engine for now I have a few $$$ available so I will go with the mild project.
A 9:1 CR is ok ? I'll have to calculate the exact CR before flycutting the heads.

[Larry S]

I just built a 1776 this spring and it runs great. Parts I used are
VW dual oil pressure relief case machined
69mm counterweighted DPR crank
12lb flywheel
VW rods redone by DPR
90.5 cyl and pistons
Scat C35 cam
Scat lifters
Steve Tims new 35.5 x 40mm heads no extra porting just enough to blend new bigger valve seats heavy duty springs.
Scat chromemoly pushrods
Scat forged 1:1 rockers
Scat 1 1/2 merged header with dual muffs
Kadrons set up by Low Budget
The motor runs great and sounds great, I am very happy with the performance. The cam has good performance and at an idle the motor sounds great (can tell it has a better cam). the motor pulls past 5000 rpm real quick and the car flys down the interstate.
Larry

[qubek]

So after reading all my books and some internet stuff, here are the few ideas I have using the parts I collected... In RED are things I need help with, it may seems stupid questions sometimes, but I prefer ask before buying. Don't hesitate to comment !

Crankshaft
Stock 69mm 'F' type crank
8 dowels flywheel
counterweighted ?

Now this will be interesting A lot of "yes, of course" anwsers. Why? Because "IT IS WRITTEN"

Rods
Stock VW 311B rods
shot-penned with heavy duty bolts ?

I don't know what is the cost of reworking of the conrods in France (plus the bolts), but in Poland it is cheaper to buy Scat I beams with come with ARP bolts already installed.

Carbs
Weber IDFs ?

I vote for Dellortos

[Nico86]

I just built a 1776 this spring and it runs great. Parts I used are

Thanks Larry 

Rods
Stock VW 311B rods
shot-penned with heavy duty bolts ?

I don't know what is the cost of reworking of the conrods in France (plus the bolts), but in Poland it is cheaper to buy Scat I beams with come with ARP bolts already installed.

Thanks qubek 
That's expensive too, If I'd come with this, I'd buy Scat or Berg ones. But I think stock 311B will work, I'll replace the bolts for new ones.

[Diederick/DVK]

best thing is if you decide to work with as many parts as you have right now and build a nice engine or if you don't upgrading parts, such as those rods. they will work fine and so will the stock crank if it's balanced. but if you decide to go with a w120 or higher cam you will go into the higher rpm zone and that's when you'd be better off with a c/w crank and bigger valves etc.

[Nico86]

best thing is if you decide to work with as many parts as you have right now and build a nice engine or if you don't upgrading parts, such as those rods. they will work fine and so will the stock crank if it's balanced. but if you decide to go with a w120 or higher cam you will go into the higher rpm zone and that's when you'd be better off with a c/w crank and bigger valves etc.

Well for now I will stay ine the mild "thing". W110, 35.5x32mm valves with the 040 heads, stock rods, balanced crank, if I can afford it I'll have it counterweighted have to ask the price). If I upgrade any of these details I'd have to upgrade all the others and other things too... will keep that for another bigger engine later.

[streetvw]

I built a mild 1776 many years ago and it was a great daily driver motor that could outrun most modern hot hatches spec as follows

line bored case drilled and tapped for full flow oiling
stock 68 crank
12.5lb flywheel
vw clutch  above all balanced as 1 assembly
cima 90.5 B&P weight matched
engle 120cam
scat lifters
C/moly push rods
berg pump and cover
stock heads 35x32 s/s valves 3angle valve job and a semi hemi cut
cr 7.5:1
40DRLA dellorto carbs
1 5/8 merged header with homemade turbo muffler (probably would have been better with 1 1/2 header)
made 95 hp on the dyno
and ran a 15.7 at the drags was great on the motorway would cruise at 70-80mph all day long

[Nico86]

I built a mild 1776 many years ago and it was a great daily driver motor that could outrun most modern hot hatches spec as follows

Sounds nice, did you use a couterweighted crank and an additional oil sump ?

[j-f]

there is a lot of combo and possibilities, but if you want my advice, you should ask you first a few questions.  

What do you want to do with your engine? Just cruising or pedal to the metal all the time?

What's your budget? And I mean a real budget that will allow you to build the engine in a few months and not in years.

What part of the work can you handle? Do you plan to build it yourself or have a reputable shop do it for you?

Do you have friends near you that have some experiences in building VW engine and who can give you a hand and advice?

You should have a look to this links, if you don't already read it http://www.flat4ever.com/projet-1776cc-f95.html .

Try to buy your parts from the same person or shop. This way, they know what you already have and can provide you what's best for your engine and needs.

This is what I learned while building my engine.  

[Nico86]

This is what I learned while building my engine.  

Thanks for the advices J-F  I've already seen this link, very instructive.

[streetvw]

I built a mild 1776 many years ago and it was a great daily driver motor that could outrun most modern hot hatches spec as follows

Sounds nice, did you use a couterweighted crank and an additional oil sump ?

it was a non c/w crank and i ran a berg 1.5qt sump and a system1 filter

[Nico86]

I built a mild 1776 many years ago and it was a great daily driver motor that could outrun most modern hot hatches spec as follows

Sounds nice, did you use a couterweighted crank and an additional oil sump ?

it was a non c/w crank and i ran a berg 1.5qt sump and a system1 filter

Thanks 

[Nico86]

and those heads seem to be allready flycut. so you can scratch that of your list  . you need to measure them though.

Yes chambers have been flycuted of 2mm, to get a theorical 8,5:1 CR with the 90.5mm cyl. kit. I will check that before doing anything else on the heads. Don't know if I should increase or keep the 8,5 ratio...

The plug threads look awfully large in this picture, like it needs an insert in there. Maybe it's just the angle...

It's 12mm Zack, you think it's too close of the valves seats ?

[qubek]

Yes chambers have been flycuted of 2mm, to get a theorical 8,5:1 CR with the 90.5mm cyl. kit. I will check that before doing anything else on the heads. Don't know if I should increase or keep the 8,5 ratio...

Have you checked the deck height already?

[Nico86]

Yes chambers have been flycuted of 2mm, to get a theorical 8,5:1 CR with the 90.5mm cyl. kit. I will check that before doing anything else on the heads. Don't know if I should increase or keep the 8,5 ratio...

Have you checked the deck height already?

No because I don't have the cylinders, pistons and valves already, when I have everything the first thing I'll do is calculate the compression ratio, and do the work to get it at 8,5 if it's necessary.

[Nico86]

I built a mild 1776 many years ago and it was a great daily driver motor that could outrun most modern hot hatches spec as follows

Sounds nice, did you use a couterweighted crank and an additional oil sump ?

it was a non c/w crank and i ran a berg 1.5qt sump and a system1 filter

Another question, did you use an aditionnal oil cooler ? Or orginal oil cooler ? Dog-house maybe ? 

[Peter]

I dont think you need an extra cooler,
unless its really hot where you live..
this spring i drove my 2276 without extra cooler,
the temp went up to 105 degrees on the highway,so not super hot
but you have a smaller bore so bigger cooling fins,
so i think if the tune is right you dont need it,
and you can always install one later if you see that the oil is getting too hot..

P

[Donny B.]

This depends on what you call hot and for how long you keep it there.  I think 105 is too hot, but you can do that if it doesn't stay there long.  I am assuming that is Celsius which is 221 F.  The problem is with the Mag case and if you get it too hot for too long you can ruin it.  With an aluminum case it's not that bad and an aluminum case will run hotter anyway.  I have driven many miles in my air-cooled powered car and I don't like it when it gets near 220F.   The hottest sustained temps I have put up with were 210F.  You get mag too hot and it loses memory and can distort never to return to its original shape or tolerances.  JMO

[Diederick/DVK]

still i understand what peter means. don't put too much hay on your fork 
build the engine, see what it does and you can always add an oil cooler 2 months later or so.
my advice would be to keep it nice and simple and use as many parts as you already have at your disposal so you'll up and running much quicker.
keep it simple, keep it fun

[roland]

a good option is to use a type 4 cooler in the dog house. They are thicker than type 1 and will cool your motor down a bit.. Also if you run too hot you can swap for a 356 pulley that's smaller and makes your fan spin faster.. Good for engines that don't see too much rpm..

Extrernal cooler makes it a pain in the ass to change the oil of the engine...

[Nico86]

Thanks for the tips Peter, Donny and Roland, I will try without external cooler. As the case will be drilled for a full flow, I'll put one later if I need it. 

keep it simple, keep it fun

 

[Nico86]

Some ideas about oil and cooling :

Berg full flow
Berg oil pump, 26mm, 30mm, stock size ?
Berg oil pump cover with relief valve
Breather box, connected to valve covers
Additionnal oil sump, what size ?
Dog-house fan housing with type 1 or type 4 oil cooler ?
Welded fan
Berg stock size damper/equalizer pulley
All the engine tin, of course.

I have to think about keeping the heating system or not...

[Nico86]

Corrected version     Still need a few advices about red parts. 

Crankshaft
Stock 69mm forged 'F' type crank
8 dowels flywheel
counterweighted/balanced

Rods
Stock VW 311B rods

Heads
Stock 040 VW heads
12mm spark plugs inserts
2mm machined chambers for a 8,5:1 compression rate
35,5x32mm valves

Camshaft
Engle W110
Straight-cut timing gears

Lifters
Stock German

Pushrods
Chromoly

Rockers
Stock rockers, stock ratio 1,1:1
Bolt-up kit

Valves
35.5x32mm stainless steel valves
Single heavy duty springs and heavy duty retainers

Case
VW magnesium case, dual oil relief, line boring, spot faced
German bearings everywhere
German hardware

Pistons and cylinders
90,5mm Mahle kit with forged pistons

Carbs
40IDF or 40 Dellortos

Exhaust
1 1/2 header, still have to think about heating system or not

Fuel
Stock fuel pump
King regulator ?
Bigger diameter fuel lines ?

Ignition
Bosch 009 + blue coil
Silicon plug wires what diameter ?
Spark plugs ?

Oil and cooling
Berg full flow
Berg oil pump, 26mm, 30mm, stock size ?
Berg oil pump cover with relief valve
Breather box, connected to valve covers
Additionnal oil sump, what size ?
Dog-house fan housing with type 1 or type 4 oil cooler ?
Welded fan
Berg stock size damper/equalizer pulley
All the engine tin, of course.

Clutch and Flywheel
Balanced with the crank
200mm flywheel ? Lightweighted ?
Clutch ?

[Diederick/DVK]

stock fuel pump and stock fuel lines.
8mm silicon plug wires
26mm oil pump, no relief valve
1.5qt sump, any will do; scat, empi, GB, or an oldschool racetrim, treuhaft etc.
type 1 oil cooler.
lightened 200mm flywheel
go with a good stock pressure plate and daikin clutch.

to keep it simple and fun

i don't have all the answers, i'm only putting my 2 cents in.

[Nico86]

i don't have all the answers, i'm only putting my 2 cents in.

Thx Diederick