Thurber's 63

[Jim Ratto]

Great old pics Sarge of one of my favorite (hardly ever mentioned) cars.

[Zach Gomulka]

What was in the motor? 1700, 110 cam, etc?

[hotrodsurplus]

My name is Chris Shelton. A long time ago my pal Stephan Szantai said I should join so I did. I've met a few of you guys over the years but you probably don't remember me. Anyway, that's my intro for my first post.

Chrysler used a color that looked a lot like that on Dodge and Plymouth cars and trucks in the late '60s and early '70s. It's called Dark Tan Poly (poly the early name for metallic). The Ditzler paint code is 2129. The DuPont code is 50967 LH.

Google just showed me an image of a car that is supposedly DTP but it's way too red to be right. It looks more like Dark Orange Poly which was another popular Chrysler color from the era. Poke around with the terms 1970 and "dark tan poly" in quotes and you'll find a good example in a page or two. There's another lighter version called Tan Poly but it's later and far lighter. 

If you're looking for THE root-beer brown that everybody else used, that's easy. The most common variant was a '60/'61 GM color called Cordovan, Cordovan Mist, Mahogany, or Cherrywood Bronze depending on the year and make. Probably the best documented example of that color is on the Doyle Gammell '32 Ford coupe It's brown with a very slight red undertone. It's beautiful. As you can see they're all the same color code. That color was era correct since it was released and remained popular as a 'custom mix' well into the late '70s.

Apologies if the chart gets all skewed. Y'all are bright. You can figure it out. It's not like the information changes from line to line.

Year      Make    color name           Ditzler   PPG   Dupont 
1960    Buick    Cordovan                21874  4035L   882-93577L
1960    Oldsmobile    Cordovan           21874  4035L   882-93577L
1960    Pontiac    Mahogany          21874  4035L   882-93577L
1961    Buick    Cordovan          21874  4035L     882-93577L
1961    Oldsmobile    Cordovan Mist        21874  4035L     882-93577L
1961    Pontiac    Cherrywood Bronze   21874  4035L     882-93577L
1961    Tempest    Cherrywood Bronze     21874  4035L     882-93577L

[Sarge]

Great old pics Sarge of one of my favorite (hardly ever mentioned) cars.

My pleasure, Jim!  Wish we could get Mark on here to answer a few of the questions others have posted.  I know he had several different engines in his rig over the years (didn't we all?), but I can't remember what the last and fastest was... I'm thinking 78.4 X 88.

My name is Chris Shelton. A long time ago my pal Stephan Szantai said I should join so I did. I've met a few of you guys over the years but you probably don't remember me. Anyway, that's my intro for my first post.

Welcome to the Lounge, Chris and thanks for the insight!  I think we met once, but I can't remember   Pull up a chair and have Stephan buy us a beer or three, will 'ya....

[hotrodsurplus]

Welcome to the Lounge, Chris and thanks for the insight!  I think we met once, but I can't remember   Pull up a chair and have Stephan buy us a beer or three, will 'ya....

Thanks, bud! Yeah, we met a few times--once or twice before the Classics at Dairy Queen--uh, Nicks now I guess--and I was the one that identified the rear wheels on your old car as Dragmasters. I should actually spend some time around here as I'm finally starting to build my '62. But that's a topic for another post (don't want to hijack!).

[johnl]

 but I can't remember   Pull up a chair and have Stephan buy us a beer or three, will 'ya....

Thanks, bud! Yeah, we met a few times--once or twice before the Classics at Dairy Queen--uh, Nicks now I guess--and I was the one that identified the rear wheels on your old car as Dragmasters. I should actually spend some time around here as I'm finally starting to build my '62. But that's a topic for another post (don't want to hijack!).

Hi Chris,  How are you doing??  Never did hear from you regarding the wire wheel article I fed you some info on.  Did it ever get published?  Last time I saw you was at Nick's a couple of years ago. Give me a call sometime.  John Lazenby

[hotrodsurplus]

Hi Chris,  How are you doing??  Never did hear from you regarding the wire wheel article I fed you some info on.  Did it ever get published?  Last time I saw you was at Nick's a couple of years ago. Give me a call sometime.  John Lazenby

Hey John, how goes it? You mean the article where I spelled your name wrong?  Yep, it printed right after we talked--I thought that's how you saw the misspelling. I'll have my editor dig up a copy for you. You still want those EMPI rocker covers? They're yours...

[johnl]

Hi Chris,  How are you doing??  Never did hear from you regarding the wire wheel article I fed you some info on.  Did it ever get published?  Last time I saw you was at Nick's a couple of years ago. Give me a call sometime.  John Lazenby

Hey John, how goes it? You mean the article where I spelled your name wrong?  Yep, it printed right after we talked--I thought that's how you saw the misspelling. I'll have my editor dig up a copy for you. You still want those EMPI rocker covers? They're yours...

Sure, I'll take the covers.  I'm on vacation next week at a Chrysler meet in upstate NY, but I'll try to remember to supply you our UPS acct for Royze.  If you don't have the info by Monday morning call the 800 number and ask them for our account #.  I'm really pressed for time on Monday getting ready to leave so it may slip my mind.  Thanks in advance for these and yes, I'd like a copy of the wheel article.

[Worm]

     Back in 1974 Mark sold his car to a classmate  of mine Rick Goodin for $1400.00 , a few months later Rick rear ended someone, fixing the car at Beckers cost Rick another $1400.00 bucks, he kept the car another year or so, (many good times with it,) sold it oddly enough, for $1400.00  I lost track of it about 1979 . That car was a steal at the price, when Mark sold it to Rick it had a strong running 1600cc Holley Bug spray motor, chrome wheels with the hubcap-lugnut area painted black , the brass engine turned dash was done by Mark himself , you have to do work like that yourself to realize what a labor of love it was-is , it was a great car, built by a great guy. During my time working at F.A.T. he helped me in so many ways, Thank You, MarkThurber,     KG

Rick must have sold the car in 76 or 77 as my next door neighbor Jamie Lavold bought it.  Jamie did sell it off again by 78 or so.  He sold it and I never saw it again.  I remember seeing it on the streets when your guy Rick owned it, I would have been 14 or 15 and I thought that car was amazing.  I got to look at it every day for about 2 years, parked in the driveway next door.  I remember it as brown more than bronze.  Definately brown/rootbeer.  2 cents

[So.Cal.Life]

    Hey Worm, your story is cool to know, where did you and your friend Jamie live back then? Rick lived at Katella & Brookhurst, his brother still does. Can you imagine buying a car like that for $1400.00 bucks?  Times have changed .                KG 

[Worm]

Well, he was'nt what I'd call a "friend", he was the much older kid that lived next door.  I basically admired the car from afar.  Not once did I ever even get to sit in it.  He was kind of a wienie.  Which inspired me to build a Cal Look car of my own that would make him a bit jealous.  Hence spending every penny and extra moment building a 56 that eventually got voted in to DKK.
We lived in Brea.

You know, at the time I knew the car was cool and different than all the other modified VW's I had seen, most knuckleheads were sporting flared rear fenders, tinted side windows and some awful version of Chevy wheels (Cragars etc..), and there was no hint of it being an iconic car.  It was just a cool looking car for the time frame.

Funny.

[Sarge]

  ...."and there was no hint of it being an iconic car."

Back then, no one thought of their cars as becoming iconic... we were just screwing around.  I sold my '63 for $1500, Mark sold his for $1400, John Lazenby sold his cheap, too... no iconic features;
just the owners vision of what a hot-rodded VW meant to them.

[Geoff P DVKK]

My name is Chris Shelton. A long time ago my pal Stephan Szantai said I should join so I did. I've met a few of you guys over the years but you probably don't remember me. Anyway, that's my intro for my first post.

Chrysler used a color that looked a lot like that on Dodge and Plymouth cars and trucks in the late '60s and early '70s. It's called Dark Tan Poly (poly the early name for metallic). The Ditzler paint code is 2129. The DuPont code is 50967 LH.

Google just showed me an image of a car that is supposedly DTP but it's way too red to be right. It looks more like Dark Orange Poly which was another popular Chrysler color from the era. Poke around with the terms 1970 and "dark tan poly" in quotes and you'll find a good example in a page or two. There's another lighter version called Tan Poly but it's later and far lighter. 

If you're looking for THE root-beer brown that everybody else used, that's easy. The most common variant was a '60/'61 GM color called Cordovan, Cordovan Mist, Mahogany, or Cherrywood Bronze depending on the year and make. Probably the best documented example of that color is on the Doyle Gammell '32 Ford coupe It's brown with a very slight red undertone. It's beautiful. As you can see they're all the same color code. That color was era correct since it was released and remained popular as a 'custom mix' well into the late '70s.

Apologies if the chart gets all skewed. Y'all are bright. You can figure it out. It's not like the information changes from line to line.

Year      Make    color name           Ditzler   PPG   Dupont 
1960    Buick    Cordovan                21874  4035L   882-93577L
1960    Oldsmobile    Cordovan           21874  4035L   882-93577L
1960    Pontiac    Mahogany          21874  4035L   882-93577L
1961    Buick    Cordovan          21874  4035L     882-93577L
1961    Oldsmobile    Cordovan Mist        21874  4035L     882-93577L
1961    Pontiac    Cherrywood Bronze   21874  4035L     882-93577L
1961    Tempest    Cherrywood Bronze     21874  4035L     882-93577L

Hey Chris, Good to see you on the board here. Will you be at SEMA again next month?

[johnl]

  ...."and there was no hint of it being an iconic car."

Back then, no one thought of their cars as becoming iconic... we were just screwing around.  I sold my '63 for $1500, Mark sold his for $1400, John Lazenby sold his cheap, too... no iconic features;
just the owners vision of what a hot-rodded VW meant to them.

I guess I was the BIG WINNER as the Butternut car brought a wopping $1600 and it was the ONLY offer I had.  If memory recalls I think I was looking for around $2000.

Today these cars are all remember and revered but as Jim states back then we apparently didn't have a clue.....  

PS:  Today Sharon Edmiston (Mrs. Sarge) has a significant birthday.  HAPPY BIRTHDAY Sharon !!    Now go have some Bean Soup.  

[hotrodsurplus]

Back then, no one thought of their cars as becoming iconic... we were just screwing around.  I sold my '63 for $1500, Mark sold his for $1400, John Lazenby sold his cheap, too... no iconic features;

I'm going to go out there and redeem you guys for selling your cars for good dough.

So far nobody has factored in inflation. Minimum wage in '74 was $2 so you can assume that a 20-year-old kid made $3.50 an hour. The amount Thurber sold his car for in '74 is the equivalent of $6,400 dollars today.

Now bear in mind that was for an 11-year-old car. Don't stone me for saying this but that's the equivalent of getting $6,400 for a year-2000 Honda Civic that's all ricered up. You can get a beautiful one of those for $4,500...and that gets you air bags, air con, injection, full interior, five-speed tranny, and so forth. Our grandkids (well yours anyway--I don't have kids) will go bonkers collecting Sport Compact Car and Honda Tuner and they'll freak out and ask why you didn't buy all the 'old' '00 Civics when they were so cheap in 2011.

[hotrodsurplus]

Hey Chris, Good to see you on the board here. Will you be at SEMA again next month?

Thanks, Geoff. SEMA hires us to shoot all the new products so yep, I'll be there.

Man, I wish I could've shot your green buggy. You and your brother gotta go to the Swindlers poker run next year. This year was good. 

[bilboa2]

So back in around 78 when I bought the aronson/holmes 63 ragtop for $3500 and wages where around $ 7.00 an hour, I paid to much ? HA..My dad was not happy at all when he found out the price I paid. Years later sold it for $ 4000  to get into my 1972 911. Remember back then in dkp2, these where our only cars, very few of us had 2 cars. Each car we owned and sold was to move on to our next "gotta have" car. Great times to be a car guy in southern calif. Cheap gas, beach rentals, no haircuts, the good life was affordable. hmmm....DAM, shoulda bought a house instead... BACK to marks car, I remember the bitch'n dash being the most stick out point. Kieth, did rob gooden own it with brms ? or chrommies ?  bill

[Worm]

If my tomato soup for a brain can recall properly I definately remember my neighbor had the BRM's on it.  And that was after your guy I imagine. 

[So.Cal.Life]

  Bill , as I stated above, Mark sold the car to Rick with chrome wheels with the hub cap area painted black, no caps. Prior to building my car I was thinking seriously about buying the Aronson-Holmes car from Jim Holmes, Mark Thurber talked to me about the fact that if I built a car of my own, the way I wanted every detail, then no matter what, it would always be considered " MY CAR" not someone elses old car , As I also stated above, Mark helped me in many ways , he encouraged me to think for myself, use my imagination , and do for myself, Mark Thurber was a very positive influence on me, again, thank you Mark Thurber,           KG

[70slooker]

wow great memories! ive been reading this thread the 1st time everytime i come on,

just curious does anyone have any contact with mark still?

[So.Cal.Life]

         Yes,  most every trip I make to so.cal, I make it a point to see him.

[lawrence]

One of the better threads in quite some time.

There is a red CHP inspection sticker on Mark's windshield in the passenger front shot that Sarge posted. I wonder if this was a result of a fix-it ticket stop or something else? Can anyone shed some light on this?

[Sarge]

One of the better threads in quite some time.

There is a red CHP inspection sticker on Mark's windshield in the passenger front shot that Sarge posted. I wonder if this was a result of a fix-it ticket stop or something else? Can anyone shed some light on this?

My pleasure, dude!  Back in the '70's, the CHP would "host" safety checks on public highways.  You'd drive around a corner and there they'd be waiting to nail your ass for ANY small infraction.... one of which was being too low in front.  I remember a time when a friend gave me a "PASSED" sticker (what you saw in Mark's window) which I quickly installed on my windshield thinking I would finally be safe for a while.... hahahaha!  About a week later, I got caught in the dragnet... a huge red-faced CHP flagged me in to the check lane... he was yelling WHO GAVE YOU THAT GOD DAMNED STICKER over and over again.  Ah, the good old days!

[lawrence]

Good stuff, Sarge. I recognized the sticker because my dad's old f250 had a green one on the windshield forever. I will have to ask him what he got it for. He sold the truck to a buddy about 10 years ago and I bet that sticker is still there.

Anyway, back to Thurber's badass sedan.

[johnl]

One of the better threads in quite some time.

There is a red CHP inspection sticker on Mark's windshield in the passenger front shot that Sarge posted. I wonder if this was a result of a fix-it ticket stop or something else? Can anyone shed some light on this?

My pleasure, dude!  Back in the '70's, the CHP would "host" safety checks on public highways.  You'd drive around a corner and there they'd be waiting to nail your ass for ANY small infraction.... one of which was being too low in front.  I remember a time when a friend gave me a "PASSED" sticker (what you saw in Mark's window) which I quickly installed on my windshield thinking I would finally be safe for a while.... hahahaha!  About a week later, I got caught in the dragnet... a huge red-faced CHP flagged me in to the check lane... he was yelling WHO GAVE YOU THAT GOD DAMNED STICKER over and over again.  Ah, the good old days!

Cops back in the day were in for us.  I got pulled over close to the Anaheim Convention Center and the cop wrote me for no bumpers.  Of course all of the holes were filled.  Back to Beckers and had the main holes opened and straight blades installed.  That was the beginning of the end for me as the car was gone a few months later.

[So.Cal.Life]

    I simply love the term "host" Sarge used to describe the safety checks, cracked me up, I was always lucky to see them far enough ahead of time to evade them, this did not, however keep me from getting more than my share of tickets for everything you can think of, the only thing" wrong" with my car prior to building it into the choptop was  being lowered, so moving violations were" my thing "and the addition of the" lowered car"part of the ticket was simply icing on the cake, so to speak. After the transformation into the choptop took place, I did not mount a side mirror, license plates, (front or rear) and my front turn signals were the parking lights (early car) inside the headlight assembly, I still got moving violations from time to time, but for some reason, law enforcement cut me an enormous amount of breaks, and most of them ended up just talking to me about the car!!! how lucky is that? About 16 years later I finally got a little more realistic and mounted a rear plate and side mirror but could never bring myself to doing the (front plate thing), they are just so wrong,(should be a law against them)       Back on the topic of Mark Thurber's car , it had a select a drop installed, and after Rick bought it, we removed the bottom torsion bars, welded the ends and center set screw areas together to retain the proper shape, and cut portions out of the remaining areas. Doing this softened the ride quite a bit,(something select a drops are not known for) yet it still retained its adjustability , I know select a drops are not desirable to most people today , but this was the old days , and this is one of a few solutions to to the select a drops (stiff ride thing) I had one on my car and softened the ride a different way .   Sorry for rambling, just food for thought...      KG

[nlvtinman]

Keith, you keep "rambling along" all that you like.
You've made history, and been around it as well, so your recollections suit me just fine. In fact, I look forward to more.
Steve

[kingsburgphil]

    I simply love the term "host" Sarge used to describe the safety checks, cracked me up, I was always lucky to see them far enough ahead of time to evade them, this did not, however keep me from getting more than my share of tickets for everything you can think of, the only thing" wrong" with my car prior to building it into the choptop was  being lowered, so moving violations were" my thing "and the addition of the" lowered car"part of the ticket was simply icing on the cake, so to speak. After the transformation into the choptop took place, I did not mount a side mirror, license plates, (front or rear) and my front turn signals were the parking lights (early car) inside the headlight assembly, I still got moving violations from time to time, but for some reason, law enforcement cut me an enormous amount of breaks, and most of them ended up just talking to me about the car!!! how lucky is that? About 16 years later I finally got a little more realistic and mounted a rear plate and side mirror but could never bring myself to doing the (front plate thing), they are just so wrong,(should be a law against them)       Back on the topic of Mark Thurber's car , it had a select a drop installed, and after Rick bought it, we removed the bottom torsion bars, welded the ends and center set screw areas together to retain the proper shape, and cut portions out of the remaining areas. Doing this softened the ride quite a bit,(something select a drops are not known for) yet it still retained its adjustability , I know select a drops are not desirable to most people today , but this was the old days , and this is one of a few solutions to to the select a drops (stiff ride thing) I had one on my car and softened the ride a different way .   Sorry for rambling, just food for thought...      KG

If I may be allowed to add to this. Some 40 years ago next month I had my 58' lowered by Greg Aronson at F & A (pre Thurber) with Keith during the dirty work. As Keith described, they used the "cut and weld" method, a messy and labor intensive procedure on link pin cars.  For all their work, I paid $35.00.
Lunch money now, but in 71'...half a days pay for a kid.

Years later while working at FAT (78'), we still did the cut and weld procedure as well as just pulling the half leaves on the ball joint cars. Marks 63' was long gone
by then, replaced by a 911 (?).   After all these years, I'm still impressed by his 63' with the engine turned brass dash.

[Rick Meredith]

Since we're adding... I took my '67 to FAT for the cut and weld in '78.

Pais a lot more than $35. I think it was $100 but I also think it included shocks.

[Zach Gomulka]

Great thread!
 We know what Aronson drove, and Thurber, what about Ron Fleming? Did his oval ever graduate from "pre cal"?