2165cc Upgrades

[Black_65]

Hi Guy's

Just playing around some ideas on my 2165cc motor...

With the items listed below and mods, what sort of power figures would i be looking at?

So current spec is :
C/R - 8.5:1 - its low i know but was built for performance in mind but long life (i bought this off someone with only the cam broke in)

Spec : power/torque = UNKNOWN (waiting to get on the rollers)

- Full Flowed Autolinea Case (all the good bits)
- 78.4 Stroker Crank (balanced)
- 94mm Mahle barrels and Pistons with Total seal Rings (balanced)
- H Beam Rods (5.5)
- CB 1.4 Ratio Rockers
- Engle FK10 Cam with straight Cut Cam gear
- 044 Heads with Dual Valve Springs 42 x 37 (wedge ported and polished by stateside) flowed as well
- Shadek 26mm Oil Pump with Berg Cover
- 48 DRLA Carbs, stacks with covers
- Empi Deep Sump
- Lightened 8 Dowelled Flywheel (balanced)
- Kennedy stage 1 pressure plate with krush lock disc
- Equaliser bottom pulley with billet bolt
- Saco Copy generator pulley
- 38amp Generator
- Doghouse with Oil Cooler
- 1 /58 merged header & box (speed shop)
- Accuspark performance coil, 8mm leads, 009 dizzy with electric ignition, rev-limiter
- Dog house tinware, Alt with race fan.

So i was looking at the following upgrades...

- webcam 86c or FK89 (C/R set to 10.5:1)
- jaycee push rods
- scat lifters (no idea what to use!)
- kep st2 and super daikin clutch disc

Whats you veiws on this? it is a car that has little street miles on and 7 race meets a year... will be running NOS around 50bhp jets by the time i look to do the upgrades.

Clarkey

[Black_65]

So looking onto 'john maher racing' engine builder and playing around with some figures...

Ive come up with these,

My current set up:


Now i want 10.5:1 C/R so played with the 'deck height' i have to work out the CC for the heads,


What is 'deck height' in mm or inc?

So i'm trying to work out if i need to check the deck height, what i need my heads to be in CC etc...

I have no idea

[baz]

i`m no expert   but deck height is usually in inches or more precisely fractions of inches , ie .040" = 1mm .

your crank is 78.4 so that online calculator won`t be spot on either. think your actual displacement is 2176ccs

the Keith Sueme Aircooled Interchange Manual is full of great info and especially useful  for a novice like you or me

[richie]

deck height is in thou  0.045 would be about as tight as I would go with those components, a fk89 really needs lots of compression,like 13/1+  the 86c would be a better choice with 10.5/1, but alot depends on the head flow,also if you are going to add some nitrous to it you dont need to get crazy on the N/A specs, are you planning on keeping the dellortos?
Even adding some compression to the current spec will help,the fk10 really needs more compression than 8.5/1, 10.5/1 would wake it up some more

As to how much power it would make,not enough,it never is

cheers richie

[chez2165]

My 2165 with a very similar spec to that apart from IDA'S and I htink an fk87 cam made 185 BHP on John Mahers dyno when it was built so maybe worth considering

[AntLockyer]

a fk89 really needs lots of compression,like 13/1+ 

Just because of the overlap?

[richie]

a fk89 really needs lots of compression,like 13/1+ 

Just because of the overlap?

Pretty much yes,it will bleed off so much it will be a pig to drive and have no torque,a fk8 would make more power with that compression[8.5] If he was going to run alot of gas then it would be ok as a compremise,the nitrous would increase the cylinder pressure enough to make it work,but without the gas it would still be a pig

cheers richie

[draven898]

go engle cam and engle lifter no scat lifter! or as my mechanic calls the scatTER ! and the fk8 would probably be a good choice i have a 2109 and an fk 87 and had to tune it very finely to get rid of the flat spot down low cause the fk87 power band is high

[Erlend / bug66]

i've got the same heads. I run a 86c and make a ton of power from a 1915cc. Bump the CR up to 12 and run the set up you have

I also have CB lightweight lifters and VW650 springs

[Torben Alstrup]

12-1 is too much with the "C" for the street. 11 is fine. But seriusly, I do not think there will be much of a difference between the FK10 and the 86c apart from the C making more torque. Bumping the CR to 10 to 10,5 with the existing parts would be the most cost effective thing to do, and it will give you way more torque compared to now, across theboard, plus about 5% more hp.

T

[Simpsonshoe]

You said you use it for street and a few trips to the track? Performance are you getting now? ET? MPH? car weight? gearing? Probably the best idea it to put either a K8 0r 86B in it with a LITTLE more comp.. less comp and more juice.. a high compression and a small shot or low and bigger...The smaller cam shouldl give it excellent street manners..remember don't go too much on the c/r or you may run into overheating.. I said may.. pump fuel may need a booster shot...

[Black_65]

Ok, i've taken in all your pointers and they are really helpful!

So lets say i keep the FK10 cam and up the C/R to 10.1 or 10.5 what and how much work would need to be done?

- heads as 62cc and deck height 0.050, So will these need the CC change and fly cut the heads?

Then would i also need new push rod tubes as the heads are more likley to be spaced different?

Sorry for all the questions....

Clarkey

[Black_65]

Plan is to keep the Dellortos 48's until i could maybe soruce IDA's

[andy198712]

You'd have the heads fly cut to make the chambers smaller which would move the head closer to the block a fraction and ideally one would re check the rocker geometry and may require shortening the push rods

[John Maher]

Ok, i've taken in all your pointers and they are really helpful!

So lets say i keep the FK10 cam and up the C/R to 10.1 or 10.5 what and how much work would need to be done?

- heads as 62cc and deck height 0.050, So will these need the CC change and fly cut the heads?

Then would i also need new push rod tubes as the heads are more likley to be spaced different?

Sorry for all the questions....

Clarkey

Enter bore, stroke, deck height and target CR into my engine calculator, leaving the 'Combustion Chamber CC' window blank. Hit the CC's button and you get...



i.e. you need a chamber volume of 51cc for 10.1 CR.
An 11cc flycut would be in the region of 2 to 2.5mm. You'll almost certainly have to make up a fresh set of pushrods

The jump from 8.5 to 10.1 should give a useful increase in performance.

BTW, when using the engine calculator it can handle metric or imperial measurements - just make sure you select the appropriate 'mm' or 'inch' button for each engine item. In the example I've entered deck height as 50 thou (0.050") - as per your current setup. I only mention this because in the engine calculator images you posted earlier, deck height was entered correctly in the fist pic (.050"), then used 0.5mm (= .020") in the one underneath. Hope that makes sense!

As pointed out earlier by baz, if you have a 78.4mm crank, engine capacity is 2176cc... not 2165.

With FK10 and CR set as above, 48 Dellortos should perform just as well as a pair of IDAs.

JMR Engine Calculator

[Black_65]

Oh ok John,

Thank you for clearing that up for me. Makes loads of sence to me .

Yes i have 78.4mm crank so looks better with the extra cc lol...

As for the 10.1 C/R will that be a nice set up a little road use and strip? i have had custom made plates to go round the bottom of the cylinders to add 'air flow' if that will help.

So what power numbers are we looking at with that set up? of coruse knowing the flow of my heads?

[John Maher]

So what power numbers are we looking at with that set up? of coruse knowing the flow of my heads?

It ought to be over 180 at the flywheel but what it'll actually be depends on heads, manifolds, setup etc etc etc.....

[Black_65]

No worries John.

I'm waiting to find out the heads was flowed to with the manifolds but here's the picture of the porting on the manifolds...



Sorry to ask again John, will the motor run ok on the C/R at 10.1?

I know a MSD set up would help but running my sponsors kit as its quiet good

[Black_65]

180+ not bad but lose how much though the wheels?

is it around 20%

[leec]

Is your motor still in your car and running?

If it is why don't you just drive it on the street for a bit and use it on the strip to see what it can do?
That way any mods you do you will know the benefits and enjoy it.

Lee

[John Maher]

Sadly I've yet to master the art of measuring the flow of an induction system by looking at photographs. I still have to do it the old fashioned way - on a flowbench 

10.1 CR should be OK, esp if you use Super U/L. BUT... depends on deck, chamber design, timing, jetting (tuning by internet can be a tricky game).

Bosch 009 and a blue coil will make exactly the same power as an MSD system at this level.

Power loss through the drivetrain isn't a straightforward percentage. Losses vary depending on the gear ratio used for the acceleration test, type of transmission, rolling resistance etc. If you put a 100bhp (@ flywheel) engined car on the rollers and make 80bhp at the wheels, you have a 20% loss. Now fit a 200bhp engine into the same car, same transmission etc. It makes peak power at the same rpm as the first motor. The 20% rule says the drivetrain will now suddenly become twice as inefficient??

[JS]

Is the drivetrain loss not constant?

[Torben Alstrup]

Is the drivetrain loss not constant?

No. The drive train loss can be VERY different from car to car. It comes down to choice of tyres, inflation of tyres, how much toe, the distance between the rolls (if two roll Chassis dyno is used) transmission, transmission oil. I´m sure I forgot 1 or 2 variables.

T

[JS]

I can see that Torben. What I meant was, is it not constant regardless of the amount of hp the engine has?
I don´t understand the theory behind percentage loss. If you have a "20%" loss it´s 6hp with 30hp engine and 40hp with a 200hp engine? How´s that possible? 

[John Maher]

I can see that Torben. What I meant was, is it not constant regardless of the amount of hp the engine has?
I don´t understand the theory behind percentage loss. If you have a "20%" loss it´s 6hp with 30hp engine and 40hp with a 200hp engine? How´s that possible? 

JS,
In my last post I was trying to say( in a roundabout way) that power loss through the drivetrain is NOT related to the power output of the engine i.e. it can't be calculated as a percentage of flywheel horsepower.

[JS]

I misread your post John, thanks for clarifying.

[Simpsonshoe]

Sadly I've yet to master the art of measuring the flow of an induction system by looking at photographs. I still have to do it the old fashioned way - on a flowbench 

10.1 CR should be OK, esp if you use Super U/L. BUT... depends on deck, chamber design, timing, jetting (tuning by internet can be a tricky game).

Bosch 009 and a blue coil will make exactly the same power as an MSD system at this level.

Power loss through the drivetrain isn't a straightforward percentage. Losses vary depending on the gear ratio used for the acceleration test, type of transmission, rolling resistance etc. If you put a 100bhp (@ flywheel) engined car on the rollers and make 80bhp at the wheels, you have a 20% loss. Now fit a 200bhp engine into the same car, same transmission etc. It makes peak power at the same rpm as the first motor. The 20% rule says the drivetrain will now suddenly become twice as inefficient??

come on, John.. they flow 193 CFM at an unspecified depression...

[Black_65]

So should the 0.050" deck height be fine to keep? and someone said it would be safer to weld the chambers and re-work the heads?

 

[Simpsonshoe]

When you are dealing with things like this you have to check it all .. mock it up.. know your current c/r and if it is compatible with your octane... then figure out you chamber and redo the cc calcs.you can weld chambers and re configure them.. you may get a better burn.. but it takes alot of experience to end up with a good shape .... then check the valve to piston clearances.. You can't take anyones word  you must check all your dimensions to be sure.. If not expensive noises may ensue..