88 x 78 street cars of the 1970's

[Jim Ratto]

A post for those that were in the thick of the 1970's VW hot rod scene. How popular was the 1900cc combination? With Mahle discontinuing the 88mm p/c set a few years back, I guess my chance of someday replicating what seems to be a forgotten combination is gone now.
I've read very little about cars which ran this bore x stroke. Anybody out there remember a few?

My thinking is it would have gone something like this...
88KS pistons or in some fortunate cases, Biral slipper Empi 88's
Welded Berg 78 or Okrasa 78 with Porsche 912 journals
912 rods
heads welded up @ F.A.T. and set up for 40 x 35.5 valves, port job like Kirsten's 1700 heads or square intakes like Underdog, flycut 0.120 or more
Engle 140 with stock VW rockers, solid shafts and 911 adjusters
48 Webers on short manifolds, bell cranks twisted outwards (fuel banjos on outside) Berg fan housing linkage, 37 chokes, 155 mains, 130 airs in F2's, 70 idles
Bosch 010 with blue coil
5-3/4" crank pulley from Santana or Berg
4-Tuned competition header with single muffler

How far off am I?
And how did these run

[Zach Gomulka]

And how did these run

Build it and let us know

I bet it was a handful, especially on 165's. I want to say the Aronson/Holmes car ran a similar combo for a while and it went high 12's???

[Jim Ratto]

And how did these run

Build it and let us know

I bet it was a handful, especially on 165's. I want to say the Aronson/Holmes car ran a similar combo for a while and it went high 12's???

I know, on little Pirelli radials.  Wheeeee! I think the white '63 did run either 88 x 78  or 88 x 74 and close gears and slicks from Underdog and went deep 12's. I remember reading one of the Hunsaker cars ran one of these with about 170hp and mid 12's slip. Street car.

[johnl]

Jim, as I've stated before I ran 88x78.4 in the Butternut car.  As I recall the pistons were KS and it was an Okrasa crank with VW rods.  EMPI tall manifolds with 48 Webers.  I can't remember the Engle cam but it was with EMPI rockers along with chrome molly pushrods and really noisy.

Ron Fleming did the heads when they were still just "F&A" and I don't remember valve size but what I do remember is the genuine VW heads and case were not a bunch of $$.  I think the case which was German came in around $95.00.

The motor in that configuration made around 160HP on the F&A dyno which was respectable back then.  With close ratio 3rd and 4th gears along with S&S comp merge collector headers the car ran mid to upper 13s. 

I did run 165 Pirelli tires on the back with 135s up front.  It would smoke the tires rather well when you put your foot in it.  Also, I remember letting a lot of air out for runs at OCIR.

Later with that motor I changed over to Berg 42 DCNF carb on his manifolds, put heater boxes back on with an S&S conventional header and got rid of the gears.  It really became a pleasure to drive then with good mileage and I could go anywhere and always be warm. 

[deano]

John, I remember when Ron was building your new "killer" engine over on E. Howell Street. I was primering the Under Dog at the time, out back, for its new owner... (He wanted purple primer, Greg said no f-'n way!

[johnl]

John, I remember when Ron was building your new "killer" engine over on E. Howell Street. I was primering the Under Dog at the time, out back, for its new owner... (He wanted purple primer, Greg said no f-'n way!

Dean, Ron didn't build the engine but I did.  He did only the head work.

[Jim Ratto]

Jim, as I've stated before I ran 88x78.4 in the Butternut car.  As I recall the pistons were KS and it was an Okrasa crank with VW rods.  EMPI tall manifolds with 48 Webers.  I can't remember the Engle cam but it was with EMPI rockers along with chrome molly pushrods and really noisy.

Ron Fleming did the heads when they were still just "F&A" and I don't remember valve size but what I do remember is the genuine VW heads and case were not a bunch of $$.  I think the case which was German came in around $95.00.

The motor in that configuration made around 160HP on the F&A dyno which was respectable back then.  With close ratio 3rd and 4th gears along with S&S comp merge collector headers the car ran mid to upper 13s. 

I did run 165 Pirelli tires on the back with 135s up front.  It would smoke the tires rather well when you put your foot in it.  Also, I remember letting a lot of air out for runs at OCIR.

Later with that motor I changed over to Berg 42 DCNF carb on his manifolds, put heater boxes back on with an S&S conventional header and got rid of the gears.  It really became a pleasure to drive then with good mileage and I could go anywhere and always be warm. 

Thanks for the reply John, yep I knew you ran this combination in the Butternut, but didn't know the details. This happens to be one of those combinations from the past I always wondered about and knew little about. Seems like with the right ingredients, it made for a real street bruiser. I'd love to gather the stuff up to replicate one.

[Speed-Randy]

Jim, AA makes 88 pistons, give it a whirl!

[Speed-Randy]

Jim, AA makes 88 pistons, give it a whirl!

[70slooker]

Wow great topic! This is the engine I'm collecting parts for! And I'm on the look out for one more "virgin" 311 casted head, after a few emails back and forth with Greg he would like to see them the best I can get! I'll be using

Ks 88s
An old welded 78 (if it checks out okay)
912 rods
I think at first a 130 cam but will most likely bring it down to a 110 once I've had my fun
Short intakes
Idas
010
Packard 440s ( just cause sarge said so)
T3 fuel pump
Mag berg sump (someone please help me find one!!)
Whatever fat wants to do to the heads to spec out to " hot street" circa 1970ish

Close gears of course
DDS solid mounts and engine hanger

Once I collect the last few things, I'll keep you all posted!

[Zach Gomulka]

Jim, AA makes 88 pistons, give it a whirl!

They are for stock stroke

[Martin S.]

Jim, AA makes 88 pistons, give it a whirl!

They are for stock stroke

You could order some custom pistons to fit those 88 barrels. 

[Fritter]

Jim, I have shorty Deano manifolds on my 2332, with the Deano push pull linkage.  Everything looks much less cluttered than the typical tall manifold, Berg linkage motor.  The Deano linkage works pretty good once you mess around with it for a while.  Easier to adjust mixture and idle when things are on the "inside".  

The only thing is, you CANNOT get the plugs out without removing the carbs and manifolds.  Pretty tight fit.

I tried to go retro and run a Deano 35mm gear oil pump, but that pumps WAY too much oil, I went to a 26mm pump instead now.  Not sure how they got those huge Deano oil pumps to work back in the day.

I also am running an original 40hp shroud with the indentation.  I have one of those aluminum aftermarket 356 oil coolers in the shroud, no doghouse!  

I also run a 40hp breather with the draft tube.  I ran a rubber hose off the breather nipple down through the rear engine tin seal area, ala early 70s.  And I also connected the valvecovers with a .5 rubber tube, with a notch cut at the high point.  

Here's a link to when I first installed the engine last summer, some things have been tweaked but it's basically the same.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWoqeZ_-mRs

[Jeff68]

I think the Berg's may have some of the "old" style 88 piston and cyl kits....

[Jim Ratto]

Jim, I have shorty Deano manifolds on my 2332, with the Deano push pull linkage.  Everything looks much less cluttered than the typical tall manifold, Berg linkage motor.  The Deano linkage works pretty good once you mess around with it for a while.  Easier to adjust mixture and idle when things are on the "inside".  

The only thing is, you CANNOT get the plugs out without removing the carbs and manifolds.  Pretty tight fit.

I tried to go retro and run a Deano 35mm gear oil pump, but that pumps WAY too much oil, I went to a 26mm pump instead now.  Not sure how they got those huge Deano oil pumps to work back in the day.

I also am running an original 40hp shroud with the indentation.  I have one of those aluminum aftermarket 356 oil coolers in the shroud, no doghouse!  

I also run a 40hp breather with the draft tube.  I ran a rubber hose off the breather nipple down through the rear engine tin seal area, ala early 70s.  And I also connected the valvecovers with a .5 rubber tube, with a notch cut at the high point.  

Here's a link to when I first installed the engine last summer, some things have been tweaked but it's basically the same.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWoqeZ_-mRs

Nice motor Mike!

[Cheesepanzer]

I remember a number of A/MC drag cars ran 78x88 combos, and I always wanted to try to build a similar combo myself.  But 90.5's kept calling my name.     One of my all time favorite drag cars of the day was "Grey Matter" and he ran a 78 berg crank, jet rods and Empi 88's.  The car ran 11.90's I believe.

I also remember the Berg family bus (parts chaser) ran a 78x88 with a W120 cam, small heads and 42 DCNF's.  Sounded good.  One of the sedans out front used to have a similar combo but a 74x88 1800cc engine.

I guess the point I wanted to make here is that the 74x88 combo certainly ran A pistons, and I suspect the bus engine ran A's as well as Gene preferred the thicker dome.  Spacers would get those A's working fine with a 78 stroke.

Plus, aren't the 88's sold by AA thick wall?

I say built it!  It would be very cool, especially if you put a mag on it.   
 

[Jim Ratto]

I remember a number of A/MC drag cars ran 78x88 combos, and I always wanted to try to build a similar combo myself.  But 90.5's kept calling my name.     One of my all time favorite drag cars of the day was "Grey Matter" and he ran a 78 berg crank, jet rods and Empi 88's.  The car ran 11.90's I believe.

I also remember the Berg family bus (parts chaser) ran a 78x88 with a W120 cam, small heads and 42 DCNF's.  Sounded good.  One of the sedans out front used to have a similar combo but a 74x88 1800cc engine.

I guess the point I wanted to make here is that the 74x88 combo certainly ran A pistons, and I suspect the bus engine ran A's as well as Gene preferred the thicker dome.  Spacers would get those A's working fine with a 78 stroke.

Plus, aren't the 88's sold by AA thick wall?

I say built it!  It would be very cool, especially if you put a mag on it.   
 

My friend Bryan built an 88 x 74 for his sedan in the late 1990's and ran "A" 88mm Mahles, heads by Heads Up Performance, 48IDAs, Web 86B

[WPS]

I ran a 76 Revmaster crank with 5.2" Pauter ali rods with 88mm Empi Mahles 'A's with thick wall Mahle barrels (same as 90.5 OD) 1850cc street motor on 'pump gas'.
11:1 with fk89 and 42x37.5 Jeff Denham heads....oh and a Vertex Mag....1 5/8" header with Thunderbird twin quietpack mufflers......sounded the nuts!!
All steel 1952 daily used street car...ran 12.3s on a berg 5 spd...big wheelstands too, even on the street with those M&H 235/60s
Compared to the 1776 I had in the car previous, which ran 12.8s, it was sooo much nicer to drive on the street as you'd expect much more torque with less shifting going on to keep the 1776 buzzin'. Drove it 500 mile round trip to the first European Bug In, ran hard all weekend and drove home with big smiles.....never forget that journey with my good friend Andy M as co pilot...once we hit Dover on the way home it was 5th gear flat out all the way on the motorways...got out shakin' and laughing....that's about as much fun as you can have with ya clothes on!!

[Lee.C]

I ran a 76 Revmaster crank with 5.2" Pauter ali rods with 88mm Empi Mahles 'A's with thick wall Mahle barrels (same as 90.5 OD) 1850cc street motor on 'pump gas'.
11:1 with fk89 and 42x37.5 Jeff Denham heads....oh and a Vertex Mag....1 5/8" header with Thunderbird twin quietpack mufflers......sounded the nuts!!
All steel 1952 daily used street car...ran 12.3s on a berg 5 spd...big wheelstands too, even on the street with those M&H 235/60s
Compared to the 1776 I had in the car previous, which ran 12.8s, it was sooo much nicer to drive on the street as you'd expect much more torque with less shifting going on to keep the 1776 buzzin'. Drove it 500 mile round trip to the first European Bug In, ran hard all weekend and drove home with big smiles.....never forget that journey with my good friend Andy M as co pilot...once we hit Dover on the way home it was 5th gear flat out all the way on the motorways...got out shakin' and laughing....that's about as much fun as you can have with ya clothes on!!

Cool motor 

[ianmac]

I ran a 76 Revmaster crank with 5.2" Pauter ali rods with 88mm Empi Mahles 'A's with thick wall Mahle barrels (same as 90.5 OD) 1850cc street motor on 'pump gas'.
11:1 with fk89 and 42x37.5 Jeff Denham heads....oh and a Vertex Mag....1 5/8" header with Thunderbird twin quietpack mufflers......sounded the nuts!!
All steel 1952 daily used street car...ran 12.3s on a berg 5 spd...big wheelstands too, even on the street with those M&H 235/60s
Compared to the 1776 I had in the car previous, which ran 12.8s, it was sooo much nicer to drive on the street as you'd expect much more torque with less shifting going on to keep the 1776 buzzin'. Drove it 500 mile round trip to the first European Bug In, ran hard all weekend and drove home with big smiles.....never forget that journey with my good friend Andy M as co pilot...once we hit Dover on the way home it was 5th gear flat out all the way on the motorways...got out shakin' and laughing....that's about as much fun as you can have with ya clothes on!!

Cool motor 

And super cool car  I miss seeing that thing run

[leec]

Hi Ian,

What was the benefit to using such short rods, was it purely just to use 'A' pistons with a stroker crank?

I miss that car too, a big inspiration for my oval.

Lee

[Lee.C]

BIG inspiration for me too 

[DaveN]

BIG inspiration for me too 

me too, i went to Ace cafe in the car once , i had to buy a earlier faster car after that ride.  I also remember seeing Ian stood by the side of the road being told off by the police after testing his 1850cc motor at the traffic lights in woking, it took PC plod awhile to catch him up!

[Lee.C]

I'm "Road-Testing" officer 

[WPS]

Hi Ian,

What was the benefit to using such short rods, was it purely just to use 'A' pistons with a stroker crank?

I miss that car too, a big inspiration for my oval.

Lee

Hi Lee

Using the 5.2 rods actually brings the piston skirt closer to the crank counterweight (and it was close) so it would've been easier to use a 5.4 or longer to make an 'A' work but I like short rods 
It basically increases low down torque due to increasing piston speed and 'cylinder filling'.....a more powerful suck...which is always good! It can be hard on cylinders/rings but I never had any trouble as the crank to rod ratio was not that extreme 1.73...stock is 1.98....an 82 with 5.4 is 1.67 which is getting harsh but still fine IMO.
My next motor for the Fiat has a 65mm crank with 4.8 rods which are tiny but the ratio is 1.87 so that's what's important.
Short rods also have the added bonus of making the motor narrower which is great for expansion control and pushrod length not to mention getting it in the engine bay!
I eventually rebuilt the motor with steel 5.4 rods and replaced the Ti valves with SS Manleys...it still ran 12.3s and felt much the same, slightly less revvy but I'd also done some other changes so it's hard to tell with multiple variables......it's good to experiment tho'......combinations these days are, dare I say, abit boring.....82x94 or 84x94 with 5.5rods cnc comps etc etc but I guess it's all about the $$ and the lack of restricted cc classes in racing. 'Small' motors also sound better/rev quicker which has always been a big part of it for me...thankfully there are like minded 'idiots' out there like Pete Shattock and Johannes to keep me/us entertained.

I miss the '52 aswell.....thankfully plod often just enjoyed looking over the car......amazingly I kept a clean license whilst driving it! "Just slow down 'sonny' and get a front number plate!!"......... the current owner Steve is just keeping it warm and dry for me..... one day.......

[Lee.C]

I'm so glad your building my motor 

[Martin S.]

Interesting reading about the short rods. When my 84x94 motor was being planned out, Steve said to get the longest rods I could so I got 5.7". Ratio is around 1.76 with these. As you can see the chassis dyno makes it clear this motor is torquey.  It would be cool to try the short rods with the same big engine. Building a wide motor for the street with fully sealed tin and thermostat was a ton of work!

Here's a pic showing the need for adding the extra strip of tin from a donor set of upper cyl tin and the 11mm cromo cylinder spacers with custom fins machined in them

The shroud also had to be widened to fit nicely to the uppers.

[Tourist]

Wow great topic! This is the engine I'm collecting parts for! And I'm on the look out for one more "virgin" 311 casted head, after a few emails back and forth with Greg he would like to see them the best I can get! I'll be using

Ks 88s
An old welded 78 (if it checks out okay)
912 rods
I think at first a 130 cam but will most likely bring it down to a 110 once I've had my fun
Short intakes
Idas
010
Packard 440s ( just cause sarge said so)
T3 fuel pump
Mag berg sump (someone please help me find one!!)
Whatever fat wants to do to the heads to spec out to " hot street" circa 1970ish

Close gears of course
DDS solid mounts and engine hanger

Once I collect the last few things, I'll keep you all posted!

Good afternoon

Sorry to ask what is probably a very stupid question , but is the T3 fuel pump you will be running different from a regular T1 version- if so, in what way?


Martin.

[70slooker]

Hey no sweat in asking, I doubt there is much different, I chose it only for the fact a number of old cal look cars had them, and I always liked the egg cup plastic covers, keeps thing clean!

I assume maybe cause the type 3s ran duels from the factory, the thought was it would be able to keep the pigs filled with fuel.

[Zach Gomulka]

The inlet and outlet both point towards the front of the car.