Engine: What would you build?

[lawrence]

So, I'm providing a blank piece of paper that you may fill in anyway you desire. I will give some limited parameters:

Must have heater boxes (larger diameter is ok).
No IDAs (think small, functioning choke, etc.)
Ability to hop in and drive WHENEVER.

Basically a engine with more horsepower than stock, that is fun to drive, and could take a VW enthusiast to a VW show in a neighboring state (or country). Use all of the knowledge you have gained building anything from stock engine to full tilt drag. Think sports car. I will post something after a few people have chimed in. Have fun.

[Lee.C]

I am guessin this is for a Bug/Type1......

I know this thread is more about "Bus Engines" but there is alot of GOOD advice/info:
http://cal-look.no/lounge/index.php/topic,21851.0.html

Its along the same line you are thinking 

[lawrence]

Yes, a Beetle.

That thread does have good info, but not exactly what I was thinking. I am trying to get people to discuss ideas for engines they have built or have the specs rattling around in their brain. Bench racing.

[Zach Gomulka]

Something simple, not exotic, easy/ inexpensive to build- 2175, 40x35.5 heads, 9.5:1, 1 1/2" merge, 40 Dellorto's. And "only" a 120-ish cam with stock rockers. With a light flywheel, light pulley, and aluminium pressure plate. The motor will have tons of grunt, but rev very quickly due to the light reciprocating mass and good CR. Lots of fun!

[modnrod]

I'll chime in early, because for me personally I've built a few engines over the years from 1300 up to 2110, 4500 to 7000, and the last few have all been similar. I call them "superstockers" (not very original title I know!  ), because they have all the easy-drive and fun character of the stock ones, but can lift their skirts a bit and turn tyres a bit when the mood strikes. Generally they do the 1/4 in the 15s, get 15 km/L through winding hills at 110kph, never break parts, and are really, really nice to cruise through winding hilly backroad highways with. As a bonus they look and sound completely stock to non-VW types (especially those who have flashing lights on their roof............). Not as fast or as much power as 2L+ motors with fat Webers, but really I prefer driving the small mild ones now.

Here's the collection of parts t I've got so far to build my latest and greatest:
Stock 311 heads, small 35/31 valves, small MCSA (they only support 100HP). 043s will do the job too.
Stock cam with 1.4s works great, in the past my "go-to" cam has always been a Norris 329S with 1.4s or Norris 352S with 1.25s, my cam-in-waiting for this build is a Schneider Cams custom (270/232/.330 inlet, 264/228/.310 exh, with 111 LSA advanced 4deg and 1.4 rockers); otherwise a cam no bigger than W100, and really even that's too much overlap, because I normally use.......
......a modded Solex 34PICT3 on modded OEM centrebranch, or else a Stromberg BX 1BBL (36mm thru to 40mm throttle blade) on a custom centrebranch, both with modded end-pieces, with a stack inside a modded oil-bath 68-70 round air cleaner with a 4" high air filter inside.
Bore, stroke, rod length, whatever you like or think is important really, but I prefer 1600-1800 personally, up to 2L still works fine with these small heads, just the rev range suffers and it signs off a bit earlier than I prefer due to the mild heads.
I also prefer the thickest barrel I can get, combined with the smallest bore I can realistically use, but there are 10000 ways to skin a cat, and my way is as right or as wrong as anyone elses! This build will PROBABLY be a 76 x 83 (1645cc) coz I have most of my parts here already and I rekn it will be perfect for my uses, but I might also build a 76 or 78 x 85.5 (1745cc or 1791cc) and just see first if the stock thin 85.5 barrels will take the heat and loading OK, I've got 3 sets of 85.5 barrels here in the shed already to play with.
Exhaust? Well, whatever floats your boat really! I like the stock sound just a bit deeper so build my own from 1.3/8 in the stock style, but many prefer the buzzing-bee noise of a 4-1. Honestly the difference is only 5HP max, who cares really on an old 80HP streeter I think, we're not chasing tenths on an index. Build what sounds nice to you.

No need to go far from tweaked OEM standard to make these little things go well I think, but each to their own.
Enjoy!

[Torben Alstrup]

My 160 hp/225 Nm. 2275 bus engine set up, put into a beetle.
Basics: 86 b cam, 5,4" rods, 94 mm nikasil cylinders, 42/37,5 mm valves in stock style heads for best cooling (043) 1 5/8" header w. heat, 45 Dells. Will go anywhere, anytime, and with decent fuel efficiency.

T

[Lee.C]

My 160 hp/225 Nm. 2275 bus engine set up, put into a beetle.
Basics: 86 b cam, 5,4" rods, 94 mm nikasil cylinders, 42/37,5 mm valves in stock style heads for best cooling (043) 1 5/8" header w. heat, 45 Dells. Will go anywhere, anytime, and with decent fuel efficiency.

T

Hmmmm Sounds cool.... Alot of Torque 

[javabug]

My 160 hp/225 Nm. 2275 bus engine set up, put into a beetle.
Basics: 86 b cam, 5,4" rods, 94 mm nikasil cylinders, 42/37,5 mm valves in stock style heads for best cooling (043) 1 5/8" header w. heat, 45 Dells. Will go anywhere, anytime, and with decent fuel efficiency.

T

True. And it'll keep you entertained. My engine is similar except for 40x35.5 heads, 90.5s, and 48 DRLAs. It's good for 13.60 @ 97 mph, and it goes anywhere.

[Jim Ratto]

90.5 x 78 or 94 x 74
40mm intake valve with non welded intake runner (think old Pauter "A" head or Rag to Ripper Fumio heads)
Engle 125
Stock rockers

conservative dual springs
8.7:1
44mm IDF Webers or 42 DCNF Webers
1.5" primaries, long merge, free-est flowng muffler you can stand to listen to

I ran the 94 x 74 version of this about 23 years ago. Still best all around motor ever, in my car.

[lawrence]

Good stuff everyone. Here are a couple that I like:

1835cc
Round port 40x35.5 heads
9.0:1 compression
Webcam 119
Dual 40 Dellortos
1-1/2 Sebring style exhaust with heaters
12.5lb flywheel

1679cc
35.5x32 single port heads
8.7:1 compression
Engle 110
Dual Kadrons or Solexs
1-3/8 merged with quiet pack
12.5lb flywheel

[Martin S.]

I've built a couple warmed over bug engines that have lasted almost too long, boring and reliable, and didn't make much power. When I started with the turbo, a couple advantages were apparent. First thing is that you don't need a muffler. Second thing is that you can use the stock heater boxes. I've got a 2332 turbo using the stock heater boxes and the small header that I bought with my AJ Sims kit. Also EFI is nice because you don't foul plugs sitting in traffic and I've noticed a lack of gummed up carbs or plugged idle jets.

[fish]

1679cc, UD heads, GB300, 1.1, Dells, light valve train & rotating assy.

1943cc, Fumios, GB309, 1.4, Dells, Magnums, light valve train & rotating assy.

[Arnoud]

My 160 hp/225 Nm. 2275 bus engine set up, put into a beetle.
Basics: 86 b cam, 5,4" rods, 94 mm nikasil cylinders, 42/37,5 mm valves in stock style heads for best cooling (043) 1 5/8" header w. heat, 45 Dells. Will go anywhere, anytime, and with decent fuel efficiency.

T

Torben,what Nikasil cylinders are you using?

Greets,Arnoud

[viNce]

I'm thinking for that engine now for a long trip westy, fuel efficient, low maintenance, silent engine. maybe this could apply on a beetle.

74*88 thick wall liners
about 8:1 CR
40*35 049 heads with a light fluff & buff, single springs, alu pushrods
CB 2280 cam with mofoco Hydro lifters, yes Hydro's 
Megasquirt EFI+Ignition based on the German 45mm TB and plenum, stock modified air filter
1"1/2 exhaust with 1"1/2 heater boxes, like CSP single quiet pack or Tri-Mil equivalent, CB quiet one exhaust, 1"1/2 sidewinder...

[Jim Ratto]

Hi Lawrence, aside from the ability to hop in and drive, under any conditions and have heat, what kind of characteristics do you want the engine to have? I think I am pretty sure I know what you don't want.
Pretty sure you don't want to be bored. Or handcuffed to a maintenance-demanding race-oriented "street" motor that just ends up being a losing compromise in both worlds. Right?
Do you want a linear powerband the pulls the same off idle as it does as it eclipses 4000rpm? (I wouldn't). Making the engine too big, with not enough overlap and lousy heads will seem real stompy torquey fast, but it won't have a nice vocal quality a good sports car motor should have. We sold some real lame, too conservative big cc motors at BH that were just flat, slow, lazy and anemic and sounded just sour. What fun is that?
I think for a good, repsonsive, sports car type engine, you need the best balance of air speed thru intake ports, IR induction (with throttle plates close to valve throat), a generous amount of streetable overlap and a very free-flowing exhaust.
You might look @ some actual popular and successful engines from production cars that do what you're talking about and see how they're put together. The little twin-plug Alfa GTA motor might be a good one (Alfa realized their initial intake port had too large of a cross section and didn't make power. They narrowed the ports and found significantly more power). Ran dual Weber DCOE on short stub stacks, 4-into-1 exhaust. Don't have cam figures at hand.
The Porsche 587/2 "carrera" might be one to look at too. The 1966cc version.... 92mm bore x 74mm stroke, 9.5:1 (yesteryear's fuel), huge high-rpm intake and exhaust ports, dual 40mm 2bbl and 296 degree duration @ .008", with a good sport exhaust, it could do 155hp @ 6500 and a nice flat torque band from 4500-6000. With smaller ports it'd probably run even better (on street).

[lawrence]

Hey Jim,

The ultimate engine for me is something that runs smooth, has torque, and puts a smile on my face when I hit the throttle. It doesn't have to be a world beater, though. This pretty much sums up my 1900. You're right, I don't want a boring or lazy motor. I like your idea of looking at proven combinations and using that information to create a VW engine with similar specs. This thread was mostly just for entertainment.

Heck, this evening after work, I came home, fired up my car and drove 30 min each way to grab some beers with co-workers. The car did exactly what I asked of it.

Lately I have been thinking about how much bottom end torque I would gain by switching to a 1-1/2" header as opposed to the 1-5/8" on there now?

[Martin S.]

I'm having a blast whenever I take my wife's 65 out for a drive. It's got the newish rebuild I posted earlier with more squish and 9.6:1 CR. It's been running great and man o man what a torquey motor! If I have the radio turned up I forget what gear I'm in, partly because of the 65 gear ratios, but mostly because the motor has so much low end power it doesn't matter what gear it's in, it just takes off! When it starts up dead cold there is a slight rattle that sounds like a big diesel starting up and we figure that's the piston kissing the head until it swells up a minute later and goes straighter in the bore. 30 thou deck height will do that, and Steve says he would go 35 if doing that again. No matter, it runs on regular pump gas and the wife doesn't complain. Firing it up it sounds desperate to get out of the garage and you have to be careful with the clutch as it feels like it will go thru the wall if you let it. And it doesn't matter if it's warm or -20 C out, the engine fires up and idles urgently, eager to get into traffic without the least hint of wanting to waver or stall even if you aren't careful with the throttle/clutch. The last work done on the engine was a week after I got it home when I got Steve to bolt on a 34PICT carb that was the original from my 71 Van. The carb has some mid range wonky issues and that's why its not on my van anymore, so I'm looking for a good mint 34PICT to put on the 65. The high compression makeover was just the ticket to making the car fun again!

[Fiatdude]

Turbo'd 2963 -- but I'm a sick puppy and I like lots of abuse

[Isaac Potter]

I have a few ideas for you Lawrence. 

1. Swap out those 48ida  as a test.    I have some Italian 44 webers you can borrow.     If those are too much I got 36 dellortos on the shelf.

2. Since I now own a  Porsche 914 (aka vw  built by Karmann). The stock 2 liter with 44 webers is pretty fun to drive.    We can take a ride. 
My next engine for that car will be 78 X 96mm with the proper cam for carbs, but hey this one runs good.

3. I'm with jim 78x90.5 is  a good engine.

Some will laugh but  I have a 2165cc  with an engle  110 cam and 45 dellortos and that motor is really fun to drive on the street. no drag racing here. Bought the motor from a guy selling his sandrail. Haven't found a need to bolt up the 2332 fk10 48ida engine sitting in storage. 

[Lee.C]

I'm having a blast whenever I take my wife's 65 out for a drive. It's got the newish rebuild I posted earlier with more squish and 9.6:1 CR. It's been running great and man o man what a torquey motor! If I have the radio turned up I forget what gear I'm in, partly because of the 65 gear ratios, but mostly because the motor has so much low end power it doesn't matter what gear it's in, it just takes off! When it starts up dead cold there is a slight rattle that sounds like a big diesel starting up and we figure that's the piston kissing the head until it swells up a minute later and goes straighter in the bore. 30 thou deck height will do that, and Steve says he would go 35 if doing that again. No matter, it runs on regular pump gas and the wife doesn't complain. Firing it up it sounds desperate to get out of the garage and you have to be careful with the clutch as it feels like it will go thru the wall if you let it. And it doesn't matter if it's warm or -20 C out, the engine fires up and idles urgently, eager to get into traffic without the least hint of wanting to waver or stall even if you aren't careful with the throttle/clutch. The last work done on the engine was a week after I got it home when I got Steve to bolt on a 34PICT carb that was the original from my 71 Van. The carb has some mid range wonky issues and that's why its not on my van anymore, so I'm looking for a good mint 34PICT to put on the 65. The high compression makeover was just the ticket to making the car fun again!

There is a company in Holland rebuliding ALL solex carbs.... I brought a 34PICT from the last year for my little "Hot" 1200 in my 65, They ALWAYS have a stall at Volksworld show, They re a little pricey but worth it, The carbs are PERFECT!
(sorry I can't remember the name/details)

But back to the topic/thread there is some GREAT info here! 

[Martin S.]

Thanks! Carbs can be funny. They can look good on the outside, yet can have problems internally.
The other thing that Steve did to this hi cr 1776 when he bolted on the 34PICT was to modify the distributor to get the advance curve that he wanted. To do that he tweaked the springs and altered the mass of the weights in the stock single can distributor. He used an electric hand drill to spin the shaft while watching the advance work, going by eye. It took him hours to do, but he said it was worth it, and it made the engine run perfect. For some reason, the weights are made of a hardened metal that was a bitch to grind down to lessen the mass. This is one of my fav motors now. Quiet and has heat and gets good mileage and is FUN!!

[Lee.C]

Thanks! Carbs can be funny. They can look good on the outside, yet can have problems internally.
The other thing that Steve did to this hi cr 1776 when he bolted on the 34PICT was to modify the distributor to get the advance curve that he wanted. To do that he tweaked the springs and altered the mass of the weights in the stock single can distributor. He used an electric hand drill to spin the shaft while watching the advance work, going by eye. It took him hours to do, but he said it was worth it, and it made the engine run perfect. For some reason, the weights are made of a hardened metal that was a bitch to grind down to lessen the mass. This is one of my fav motors now. Quiet and has heat and gets good mileage and is FUN!!

Hmmmmm Some interesting info......

I found an email address for you: rage1@live.nl
and the website: http://www.rage-keveronderdelen.nl/

They did mine with 6v parts so I could keep the 65 original 

[modnrod]

For some reason, the weights are made of a hardened metal that was a bitch to grind down to lessen the mass. This is one of my fav motors now. Quiet and has heat and gets good mileage and is FUN!!

Gday Martin.

To lessen the mass on the weights, I've always found drilling holes to be easier than grinding, I use cobalt bits.
If I later need to make them heavier, I can always tap them and screw in a hardened steel screw or bolt to regain weight on the end of the weight.
A box of weights and springs is probably easier though!


(PS I agree completely with the little Solex motors, they drive and sound different).

[Martin S.]

Haha cool, drilled distributor weights 

[Fiatdude]

Is this turning into the weight saving thread?

[nicolas]

Is this turning into the weight saving thread?

it sure isn't turning into a 4"-bore thread. 

oh well, maybe these small engines can be fun as well 

[j-f]

I'm having a blast whenever I take my wife's 65 out for a drive. It's got the newish rebuild I posted earlier with more squish and 9.6:1 CR. It's been running great and man o man what a torquey motor! If I have the radio turned up I forget what gear I'm in, partly because of the 65 gear ratios, but mostly because the motor has so much low end power it doesn't matter what gear it's in, it just takes off! When it starts up dead cold there is a slight rattle that sounds like a big diesel starting up and we figure that's the piston kissing the head until it swells up a minute later and goes straighter in the bore. 30 thou deck height will do that, and Steve says he would go 35 if doing that again. No matter, it runs on regular pump gas and the wife doesn't complain. Firing it up it sounds desperate to get out of the garage and you have to be careful with the clutch as it feels like it will go thru the wall if you let it. And it doesn't matter if it's warm or -20 C out, the engine fires up and idles urgently, eager to get into traffic without the least hint of wanting to waver or stall even if you aren't careful with the throttle/clutch. The last work done on the engine was a week after I got it home when I got Steve to bolt on a 34PICT carb that was the original from my 71 Van. The carb has some mid range wonky issues and that's why its not on my van anymore, so I'm looking for a good mint 34PICT to put on the 65. The high compression makeover was just the ticket to making the car fun again!

There is a company in Holland rebuliding ALL solex carbs.... I brought a 34PICT from the last year for my little "Hot" 1200 in my 65, They ALWAYS have a stall at Volksworld show, They re a little pricey but worth it, The carbs are PERFECT!
(sorry I can't remember the name/details)

But back to the topic/thread there is some GREAT info here! 

A friend bought one from them (Rage or something like that) at EBI last year. A bit more expensive than a new Brosol, but the quality is far better! The guy was also very helpful and gave some very good advices.

[nicolas]

he is good (Rage) and indeed helpful.

[Lee.C]

Yeah as I said..... Prices are a little HIGH but they are ORIGINAL vw carbs in PERFECT working order 

The only problem is they look a bit too "Good" & "New" for my taste 

[Martin S.]

Here is another place that sells the Solex carbs rebuilt, that's stateside. http://www.volkzbitz.com/