Dilemma (I'm not the first & I won't be the last)

[stretch]

Responding to another thread got me thinking about the situation i'm in with my current 'street / strip' car.

At present the car is a complete compromise between being usable on the street & being quick at the track (as all street / strip cars are).  With it being winter & being in the process of tearing the car apart for a few upgrades & servicing, i'm torn between making it more user friendly on the street or making it quicker at the track.  The gearbox is long over due a freshen up so that has to happen this winter.

The car currently has a 2332cc 10:1 c/r, ultra wedge port heads, clay smith CS76 cam, 51.5mm IDA's, etc.  It runs cool on the street & is surprising easy to drive despite the larey cam.  It has a gearbox in it that has close ratio 1st-4th gears, but, the 3rd & 4th are too long for optimum times at the track.  However, it does enable the car to cruise at 65mph+, so do I:

A - Swap the cam out for something slightly less wild (maybe an FK-8 or similar), leave the ratios as they are in the box when it's re-built & have a more street orientated set up.

or

B - Leave the motor as it is & drop optimum gearing into the box and sacrifice the ability to cruise at 65mph+

Like I said, i'm not the first to be in this dilemma and I won't be the last.  What have you guys done in the past and have you regretted the decision?

[JS]

The more "track friendly" you make the car, the less you will use it.

You have to decide what's more important for you. 

[leec]

I did it last year when my old box broke. Went to a really close set up and as mentioned, I use the car far less. Its great for a quick blast and mix it up with some 'quick' cars but its 15 miles to where my bug gets MOT'd and when I get out of it there I am fed up and tired with it to be honest.

Why not keep the gears as is and add a small nitrous shot?
Lee

[stretch]

That's my worry, will I still use the car on the street if I alter the gear ratios.  Hmmmm.

Thanks for the input guys.   

Oh, and Lee it's a long story, but, nitrous oxide is a no no for me.

[richie]

Stretch

how many road miles do you do a year? how many times do you go to the track? and what are the 3rd & 4th currently fitted? what size rear tyre?

I got a couple of ideas but that info would help

cheers Richie

[stretch]

Richie, glad your back dude (although I bet you wished you were still in the warmth of so-cal).

I'll have to check to be exact, but, I reckon I did between 800 / 1000 road miles this year.  I think I went to the track 5 times, although we usually aim for about 7 visits to the track.

Currently 3rd is 1.48 & 4th is 1.12.  Ring & pinion is 3.88:1.  I was thinking to get optimum times i'd go for a 1.58 (3rd) and 1.31 (4th)

Rear tyres are 215/65/15's.

All ideas welcome.   

[Fiatdude]

Having played with lot of different NA engines street and strip,,,, this has a very easy solution --- put a draw thru turbo system on it -- leave the gearing the same or even go back to the higher stock ratios -- maybe a FK44 cam -- you don't have to change the CR of anything else -- -- limit the boost to 7-10 pounds and you're still using pump gas and that will add between 30-50 % more HP,,,,,, turbos love the higher gearing, makes them work quicker -- the cost of the change over is about you would spend and a new set of 48's

Richie has a handle on this conversion --

I have used and would recommend AJ's hide away turbo exhaust and intake and especially his 500 cfm Holley carb, but get a quality turbo from a local/known dealer near to you that will help you spec out the turbo based on engine size and RPM band you run.

You would have a very nice docile street car and a freight train when the boost comes on -- I had this system on the Fiat and I could go anywhere with it ----

It's the dark side and it's calling you LOL

[stretch]

Fiatdude, I had a draw thru set up on a race car for a number of years.  I loved it & it always ran great at the track, but, I think it would drive me nuts on the street.

Is the AJ Holley carb the one with the adjust-a-jet feature?  They sound like a great idea.

[richie]

I had to look up what that cam is, yep thats not really going to be much of a street cam

I think I would loose the heads, the cam and the 51.5 idas and go to something like CBs super pro heads, with there higher velocity matched with a FK8 or FK45 and some 48idas, and around 10.8/1 compression I think it would be just as quick at the track with that gearing as it would make power down much lower, I would even consider a 1.04 4th gear, with that you should be able to drive it anywhere and I think it would still go high 12s on a good day

cheers Richie

And yes 3 layers just to work outside is not what I am used to right now

[stretch]

Yeah, the cam is a bit too wild.  I guess I got carried away & looked purely at the numbers.     It's surprising docile on the street though, plus, i'm sure the long duration helps with keeping the motor cool on the street.

I think if I junk the 51.5's i'd go for Efi.  With the money I'd get from the IDA's, plus the MSD system I wouldn't be too far away from a programmable system.

I'm not sure the budget for this winter will allow me to make all those changes (even if I had the budget, i'm not too sure the wife would be that happy  )

[richie]

I'm not sure the budget for this winter will allow me to make all those changes (even if I had the budget, i'm not too sure the wife would be that happy  )

I wont tell her if you dont

I was thinking you could probably sell what you got/dont need and cover the new parts cost, I didnt want to suggest EFI as I thought it might be to much in one go but it would make total sense

Lets see what other ideas people throw out there, more than one way to do it

cheers Richie

cheers Richie

[Fiatdude]

For all your EFI needs LOL -- --

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1725646

The Fiat had MSD, dial-a-jet Holley carb, 2165 with the Ultra Wedge ports -- -- it was so simple and bulletproof -- I've had so many issues changing over to EFI, that I wouldn't recommend it too anyone that isn't a really diehard wrencher, that has easy access to a dyno and a EFI Guru or be willing to P A Y for that expertise -- I've finally got my Electromotive system running good and I don't want to go thru the hassle of changing over to the AEM

[Jim Ratto]

2332 is  big engine, with big lungs. In order for it to attain volumetric efficiency and to make decent power above 6000 it needs overlap and generous valve area and a good intake.
My thoughts on this:

for 583cc per cylinder (considering "hot street" tune on best pump gas you can get) a 42mm intake valve (in conventional VW head style port, not SF etc) is going to give you a crisp throttle response and good torque, but power is going to peak out at just under 6000rpm- and best cam profile for that would be around 258 deg @ .050/300 @ .020" and a tick under .550" @ valve (Duration measured at lifter, not valve). A cam profile like this will give you a practical powerband of 3400rpm to 6200rpm. No need to go above 37mm venturi to make those rpms, so your 51.5 carbs are overkill.

To move power up to peak around 6400 (and a practical powerband of 3900rpm to 7100) a 45mm int. valve, coupled with 276 deg @ .050 and 320 @ .020. Now a 40mm venturi works best, which is a popular choice for big hot street IDA motor on pump fuel. F2 or F4 emulsion tubes. Forty mm vents sidled up with good ignition, good modern plugs and some time spent tuning makes for an unbelievably easy, yet explosive motor to drive.

Cam grinders need to publish which cc engines they designed the cam profiles for. Last time I saw a cam grinder actually do that was late 1980's. Web Cam had a chart which showed characteristics of  given cam, depending on cc of motor. The old Web 110 runs like a rocket in a small to mid sized cc motor (like 1835cc and under) but then put it in a big 2300 and it;s a stump puller Baja or bus cam. This chart was published in 1988 issue of Hot VWs (the issue that had Bug A Zon on the cover). It's a good reference!

Here's something kind of revealing:
88x69 (1679) with excellent 40 x 35 heads, peak power with 34mm vents, and 246 deg @ .050 and 284 @ .020 = 7000rpm, and powerband of 4200-7200 (if springs allow)
now, 90.5x82 (2110) same heads, same venturi, same cam profile, peak power is now 5500rpm, powerband from under 3000rpm to 6000rpm.

Easy to see how the bigger lungs of the 2110 give the motor a more "stockish" powerband. Maybe "stockish" is a stretch, so maybe it's better to call it "Porsche 912-ish". The cam profile in the 2110 would be easier to deal with off idle and slugging around every day- but would you be happy? Personally, all the trouble of setting up cam timing, setting up spring heights, spring pressure, lash cap height, geometry, pushrod length, deciding on what lash to run (and where to measure it) and everything else that just eats hours when doing a fast VW motor, I'd want some return on all that gut-ache and want the thing to come alive. In the above example, I'd want the smaller cc motor. Or I'd want to use a different recipe for valve size and cam profile for the big motor.

[neil68]

Ring & pinion is 3.88:1.  I was thinking to get optimum times i'd go for a 1.58 (3rd) and 1.31 (4th)

Rear tyres are 215/65/15's.

All ideas welcome.   

A few years ago, I made a similar switch in my 1968 street-strip Beetle.  I race 8-10 times per year at our local Street Legal 1/4-mile drags with my home-built 2332 cc power plant.  Otherwise this Beetle is a city car and I drive it most days, except in winter.  I stay off the freeways due to the close gears.

I have installed dropped spindles/disc brakes, a close ratio gearbox, SAW race axles, Bus snubbers, Mohr mid-mount and Berg engine support bar.  Otherwise, it's pretty much a stock Beetle with the original Z-bar and rear suspension (21 mm torsion bars, stock spring plates, etc).  I added a bolt-in RLR 5-point roll bar, for safety.

The gearbox used to have a 1.48 third/1.04 fourth, however, it wasn't working well at the track.  I was of two minds, as the engine was screaming if I only used three gears, but would drop off too much in fourth gear.  I sold that transmission and called Rancho Performance.  They put together a 3.88 with 3.78/2.35/1.65/1.31 which has worked very well with my Web 86C and now a Raptor cam (similar to FK47).  I stayed away from the usual 4.11 racing first gear, to maintain easier acceleration from a stop, during city driving.  I also use M&H 215/65 tires, but am careful if it rains (I live in a dry climate).

The main downside is that the 1.31 is not very pleasant on the freeway, although it's fine on the other main roads which usually have 80 km/h speed limits.

[Fiatdude]

Just to throw some more info out there for you to think about going to the dark side -- was doing some data recording in my full bodied Ghia as I was doing some street tuning rolling onto the throttle in 3rd gear -- starting at 3400 rpm boost 17 psi = 50mph to 6200 rpm = 90mph -- -- that took just under 3 seconds


Oh Richie -- just so you'll miss SoCal,,, Tuesday it will be 27C out here

[BeetleBug]

I have gone from the typical FK8 engine via the average high compression 2332 with a FK89 to a 450hp turbo/efi engine all in the more or less same car. My impression is that it is not the engine that decides how many road miles you do. It is the car, gearbox and you. The FK8 got boring after a short while. The FK89 is fun after 5000 rpms but can be a bit tiring on a long cruise again depending on the car. The turbo engine takes me anywhere anytime without any problems at all but I do not cover more miles with it compared to the other engines. Then last winter I bought a Super Beetle. Lowered it with a proper coil over kit, big brakes, fitted it with a long ratio gearbox and a 112hp 1915 engine with heather boxes, nice seats, nice shifter and all the bits and bobs needed to make life a little more comfy. And guess what, I covered more miles with it last year than I have done the last 8 or so years with my 67 looker. When the season was over I was about to build a engine with approx 30 more horses but then a owner of Porsche 912 asked me if I was interested in a swap. So now the circle is about to be closed. I will build a 2332, FK87 ish engine for the Porsche but I will make it comfy with big brakes, nice seats and proper handling.

Best rgs
BB

[Rocket-Racing]

 I will build a 2332, FK87 ish engine for the Porsche but I will make it comfy with big brakes, nice seats and proper handling.

Best rgs
BB

So glad to hear that!
I was getting a little concerned here when it hit me that I know four guys with 912's. I mean we're not THAT old    
But now we're talking my kind of Porsche  

[Bill Schwimmer]

The classic battle between street driving & drag racing...  You could build a big K8 motor with a stock ratio 4:12 box & probably get it to run in the 12's & drive it anywhere.  Keep the current motor combo & add a 5 spd to optimize the gearing  & drive it on the hwy.   Very expensive & expensive to fix,  but fast. Or optimize the 4 spd for the track & it would be less street friendly.  My personal experience is that I use a car much more that is capable of hwy driving.  A big choice to make.

[K-Roc]

I'm with Bill on all points,  Jim R post is spot on too!

As I never drag race my car anymore and moved to an area of our city that has a lot of highway acces, 2 years ago I pulled the close 3-4 and replaced with a 1.31-.82 with a 4.12 R/P..  The drop from 3-4 is too much but in fourth I can rip anywhere at 85mph all day long if I want to.
 I just pulled the FK87 and put back the 86c, I also closed up the intake port on my home brewed wedgeport style head from 83cc to 72cc
It still flows 215 cfm at .600".  I also made a new set of manifolds with smaller intake runners.
The difference is massive, the motor now pulls insanely hard from 2500 probably to 7000 RPM.  I did a rolling pedal mash in front of my house from about 10 mph and it breaks the 215/65 loose easily.  It did not do that with the  the 87 and the bigger ports.  It did pull a higher rpm which suited the old close gearing and the track.

The next change is the 5 speed, the parts are ready to ship to bergs.  After much discussion with Bruce T  it's going to be 3.78-2.25-1.48-1.04-.82 on a 4.12.    So it's not a drag 4 speed with a highway 5th , but rather a more equal spaced 5 speed  that will be perfect for the street. 

So the big question is what do you really want to do with the car, you have to make a decision, when you go to the track is it for serious weekend racing that you need slicks and consistent et,s to go rounds or are you just ripping the odd 1/4 mile,
Are you chasing a super fast time slip or out there just for kicks once in a while.
I think you will get much more enjoyment out of the car if you de tune thie engine a bit  and put taller gearing in it.  I guess it also depends on how much money and time you really want to put into it. I can tell you from experience that the switch to EFI is a huge deal, and very time consuming. End result is defiantly something that CAN be a little more drivable however you will not gain any peak power over well tuned carbs.

Time for breakfast....

[Zach Gomulka]

The next change is the 5 speed, the parts are ready to ship to bergs.  After much discussion with Bruce T  it's going to be 3.78-2.25-1.48-1.04-.82 on a 4.12.    So it's not a drag 4 speed with a highway 5th , but rather a more equal spaced 5 speed  that will be perfect for the street.

That trans is going to be perfect! I've always thought that if VW put a 5 speed in their cars from the factory, it would have that exact same gearing. The gear splits are perfect, each one is just a little bit closer than the last.

[Neil Davies]

Stretch, I remember you telling me that the reason for letting the Ghia go was because it was too much of a race car and not streetable enough!   Now you want to do the same with the oval!
1.31 4th is lower than a standard 3rd gear IIRC, so it would be like driving around in 3rd! I had a 1.31 4th in Headstraight and would change into 4th going through the 1/8th mile clocks. I'd go with Richie's idea of heads, cam and carb swap or Lee's idea of a bit of nitrous!

[Fiatdude]

[Trond Dahl]

haha nice shirt

[stretch]

Some good ideas being kicked around here.  Thanks for sharing personal experiences.

I'm gonna tear into the car over the xmas break & once i've looked at what needs replacing from a servicing point of view i'll decide on which direction to go.

I think money no object i'd build another motor for the oval & put the current engine into a stripped out race only car, but, that's not gonna happen unless santa claus gives me a heads up on the lottery numbers.   

One idea I did have was, is it possible to run a wild cam with 1.25:1 rockers on the street & switch over to 1.4:1 rockers for the track?  I expect that approach would probably need 2 sets of pushrods as well (unless the geometry works out the same with both sets of rockers), but, could be a fairly cheap way of 'de-tuning' a motor for street use, or is this competely wrong & will cause damage?

[Shane Noone]

Hi Martin,

Correct me if I'm wrong mate  but we've had many conversations on your dilemma over the last couple of years and from these I was under the impression you are actually pretty happy with your current normally aspirated motor and gearing except you wish it just had that extra oomph to allow if to run regular high 12's without pulling the fanbelt. Yes?

Or have you moved the goalposts now  ( as we all tend to back and forth ) ?

With your current well specced 2332 and close 1-4 box, in a full weight street driven Oval ( on the heavier side ) with your current power level, I still think a change from 3.88 to 4.12 R+P will achieve the original requirement.

An interesting an reasonable cheap trial could be to choke down those 51mm IDA's using either 40's or 42's and possibly pick up more torque from improved air speed velocity through those big suckers ? Technically it sounds like a de-tune but maybe it is for ultimate power but might surprise you with chasing down your regular 12....

Just my two cents worth also buddy.

Ps are you still going dry sump ? If so I have a dry sump tank you might be interested in.

Cheers, Shane.

[stretch]

Shane, not really moving the goal posts.  I'd just like a consistent high 12 second car & at the moment it consistently runs 13.1/13.2 second passes, occasionally running 13.0's & very, very occasionally a 12.9

As you know, the difference between high 12's & low 13's is more than just a number.   

Changing to a 4.12:1 ring and pinion will ultimately achieve the same goal though, it'll lower the gear ratios.  Except it'll lower all of them.  That might be a better option, i'll speak to Paul at Bears.

I'm thinking you guys are right about choking down the IDA's as well.  I'll see if I can get hold of a set of 40/42mm venturi's.

Yeah, still going dry sump.  I know it's not necessary, but, I like the idea.   

[modnrod]

This sort of scenario I've had a few times before too, and all I usually do is change tyres at the track.

Your 215/65-15s run out at 26" or so in diameter, and have a sidewall height of around 5.5".
McCreary and Hoosier make 23.5"x 8" slicks to go on a 13"rim, both are sticky as crap (I've run 1.5 60ft on them on leaf spring cars). They also have almost the same sidewall height (which means initial bite), but drop your gearing 10%.

Takes about 5 mins to change tyres with a cordless impact and a light weight jack.
 

[richie]

This sort of scenario I've had a few times before too, and all I usually do is change tyres at the track.

Your 215/65-15s run out at 26" or so in diameter, and have a sidewall height of around 5.5".
McCreary and Hoosier make 23.5"x 8" slicks to go on a 13"rim, both are sticky as crap (I've run 1.5 60ft on them on leaf spring cars). They also have almost the same sidewall height (which means initial bite), but drop your gearing 10%.

Takes about 5 mins to change tyres with a cordless impact and a light weight jack.
 

That was one of my initial thougts as well, a short tyre for the track only with the taller 4th to help for street driving, but would need some engine changes to make it all work


cheers Richie 

[Eddie DVK]

This sort of scenario I've had a few times before too, and all I usually do is change tyres at the track.

Your 215/65-15s run out at 26" or so in diameter, and have a sidewall height of around 5.5".
McCreary and Hoosier make 23.5"x 8" slicks to go on a 13"rim, both are sticky as crap (I've run 1.5 60ft on them on leaf spring cars). They also have almost the same sidewall height (which means initial bite), but drop your gearing 10%.

Takes about 5 mins to change tyres with a cordless impact and a light weight jack.
 

That was one of my initial thougts as well, a short tyre for the track only with the taller 4th to help for street driving, but would need some engine changes to make it all work


cheers Richie 

Ok and how is this for a 195/65/15 tire...?

[Zach Gomulka]

195/65's are 25" tall so the change in gearing will be much less.