Small powerhouses and old school

[Bewitched666]

Will that engine fit? Looks pretty wide

[folkevogn]

a 1/4 mouse, what? 

1/4 mouse with cheese, or in metric a royal mouse. 

hehe good one Nicolas
reminds me of one of my top 5 best movies. Pulp Fiction

[Frallan]

More

Whatever that is, please let us know more.
My guess is not 4 valves per cylinder but twin plug and 2 valves?

[Roman]

More

Whatever that is, please let us know more.
My guess is not 4 valves per cylinder but twin plug and 2 valves?

Hi Frallan,
It is an engine for a Comp Eliminator G/Dragster. One of his old engines is in a garage 100 m from me!
Top notch work Brian!

//Roman

[Chris Andrews - The Mailman]

The Carrillo's in the dragster motor are only 5" long as I remember.

Should I remember this correctly, I believe that the Carrillo's in Eric Ballard's (ERCO) A/MC, B/MC, C/MC, C/MX & G/Dragster 1680 cc engines (88 EMPI Slipper Skirt pistons, 69 mm VW counter weighed crank) were 4.850". Yes it is a VERY tight fit, but it can be done with Slipper Skirt  pistons.

[ugly duckling]

oh postman qwit your yapin and build somthing for god sakes. times a ticken . UD.

[viNce]

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/YaKYf0NOMS8" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/YaKYf0NOMS8</a> 

[C.O.R.]

Chris, I must be missing something, so help me out please. What do you mean by "slipper skirt pistons are a very tight fit?" Are you talking about slipper skirts and the width of the assembled engine in relation to fitting into a bug body being "very tight?" The only factor I see here is if your running spacers on the the cylinders, but that'd be with a long stroke rod.

Do you mean to say "very tight" related to the skirt of the piston (barely) coming out of the engine case with those short rods? I'd agree that'd be a concern. With those shorty rods, you'd need to hand grind small windows in the case for the rod stroke, and then match grind (as in carefully have them machined) the cylinders to the case windows. Then you'd hand grind the slipper skirt themselves so they don't hit the case on the return stroke. Those short rods imact calculating your compression ratio, deck height, etc.

You are right on target with the rod lengths themselves, and the crankshaft/rod length ratios as other considerations.

And don't forget that the Modified Compact (A/MC, etc.) and Modified Eliminator (SS/CX) classes all used crankshafts varying in strokes from 78.2mm throught 82mm to meet the weight break rules. Each combo required their own special machine/grind to fit modifications depending ont he parts you assembled. Now, the dual carbs to engine compartment side is tight when you needed to adjust/synching them...

Anyway, our thoughts/input on the discussion....talk to you soon!

Aloha, Frank

Castagnetti Ohana Racing
Honolulu and Hilo

[s-perf]

Thanks Vince for posting the video of my Buggy.

Inspirated by this post and by the great job of JPM, we decide to build a small engine also.

We race for the first time (with this engine) in France 3 weeks ago and then all this week end at the EBI 3.

Here is the combo :
AS41 case
66 mm welded berg crank
90 mm autocraft piston & cylinder kit (old from 90's i think).
stock welded heads with 42x37 mm titanium valves
Heads flows 190cfm intake / 150 cfm exhaust at full lift with good velocity
FK89 cam - 1,4 rockers
48 IDA with 40mm venturies
1-7/8 exhaust (too big i know )
12,5 CR - running with VP racing fuel
No cooling, but alternator is on.

Actually the engine is making 167cv (DIN) HP (perhaps a little more with the changes we made this week end).

This engine is my street bug (you can see it on the video in the message before).

I have always build "big engine" from 2liters to 3liters and i am very surprised and glad of this small one.


This week end at the EBI 3 i ran 12,2s at the beginig and after some different jetting, venturies, exhaust, etc... combo, i finally ran :
20m : 1,60s
1/8 : 7,32s
1/4 : 11,68s
speed : 109 mph

The engine seems to be very strong as we made aroud 20 passes this week end, 9000rpm at each gear, 9200 at burn out.
No leaks, no cooling problems, rockers play have not move.

I think we have still many things to do as the combo is not perfect.
The exhaust is not good, the cam is too big, the I/E ratio is too high, the manifolds are too long, slicks are too big, etc...

So, if someone have ideas or advices, i am really open !!

Special thanks to Mike H. and Greg M. for the gearbox, Steeve, Ian Clark, Paul Shley, Keith S.  for the support and the advices this week end on the track  !! 
Thanks to Vincent (builder and conceptor of the Buggy), Phiphi (for the suspension tuning advices) and to my friend David that helps me a lot on this engine.

[s-perf]

Here is the engine :

[Oliver Frey]

Here is the engine :

Sweet look at how narrow that little bugger is.

[fish]

This topic is just insane, Congrats to all that have had success with the mighty mouse cant wait to put mine together 69 x 88 Empi Birals, should be good.
Anyway keep up the great work guys.

[Jesse Wens]

1192cc
15.421@ebi
turbocharged though,still counts as a mighty mouse?

[mr horsepower]

go jesse!!!!!

[Jesse Wens]

thanx

[Torben Alstrup]

Yes the buggy ran very nice.
At some point sunday Johannes and I was sitting in the CSP tent grabbing a bite, when you went on the track. - Both of us stopped talking and eating, and listened to the burn out and run. And when it was over we both had a big smile on our faces. Nice engine.
T

[Bewitched666]

Damn what kinda turbosetup is that?

[Lee.C]

1192cc
15.421@ebi
turbocharged though,still counts as a mighty mouse?

Cool little set up - we had a good race 

[Jesse Wens]

Monkeyboy,That was the metalflake buggy no? Close call till the end, the best races. Maybe when your done finetuning the result will be the other way round.

[Lee.C]

Monkeyboy,That was the metalflake buggy no? Close call till the end, the best races. Maybe when your done finetuning the result will be the other way round.

Yep thats me and yes that was the FIRST tune and then driven to Belguim  I have had a few problems since but I think I have them sorted now 

Das Drag Day / SCC 

[rick m]

What journal size are you running on your destroked crank and what rod length?

Rick Mortensen

[george4888]

Hi, Everyone.   When I get my car set up for good take-offs from the starting line I will let you know the times.  I don't see anyone doing a legal SS/FS in the USA, except me.  There are rules which do not allow the use of any aftermarket heads and the 044 is an example of a head that is NOT made by VW/Audi and per the NHRA tech people, not allowed in this class. Also, if you only have a roll bar you have to use Stock seats,,,not race type seats and bumpers are also required. The rules for the 2009 SS/FS class are such that I am having lots of trouble getting my car and me down closer to the weight of 1800 pounds with my 1776 cc engine. Why the 1776 cc ?  Because , I have built more of them than any other size during my 30 years working on VW's, do know what to expect.   Looking over the past two years of posts in this forum, I see I am on track with many for my "small" engine.  But, I am only working with springs that allow up to 8,000 rpms,,,at this time, but if the times are not on the index or below it, I will go to stronger springs and pick up another 1,000 rpms. The bottom end is Berg wedge-mated crank and Pauter light weight rods.  I am using many light weight parts throughout the engine, such as Pauter's roller rocker arms and CE light weight cam straight cut gears.  The heads are FF and have been run in the '80's legal down into the 11's, so I just need to work out the suspension problems I have and see what happens to the HP getting to the track.  Thanks to all for the good information.  Building a car to run legally in NHRA or IHRA is not easy, due to the strict rules.   The index is 12.75 for SS/FS and in IHRA, running over 2,000 pounds weight, it is 13.25 for SS/CC.  We did this 10 years ago and ran .75 under the index at that time, so I am just trying to repeat history and have some fun.

George Karacostas, 4886

[Taylor]

wanted:  I am looking for a set of nos 041s  they must have a VW logo and the full part number.   No mofoco of auto lina logos.   NHRA is particular

e-mail me p/m me or call me at 562-884-2373  thanks  taylor

[kingsburgphil]

Regarding Kris Klingamann's motors, I don't see any mention of the weight break used in AMC/BMC class comp. At the time we started at 13 lbs./ci and went to 19 lbs./ci. I bailed at 15 lbs., since my 1998cc was to heavy/slow to keep up. Kris and others used small efficient motors because they
had to respond to NHRA rules with winning combinations of parts and driver skills. Yes they leaned on the motors and trannys rather heavily, and they paid the price, as well as reaped the rewards. Nowadays, unless you're a class racer there's few reasons to run a motor at the ragged edge, unless you're a glutton for punishment. Kris and I only raced once, i was lucky. I dared not try my luck again. Kris ,if you read this, long time no see!

[Peter Shattock]

Well I finally ran the 11 I've been chasng for a while with my 1776cc N/A street car. The interesting thing is having read most of this thread again that I would not consider it to be "thinking out of the box", particularly in terms of the motor. A fair bit more effort has gone into making the gearbox more efficient though.
Ian at WPS who built the motor would be the first to admit its just a development of the street motor he ran in his split, and not a race motor.
The parts in the motor are all readily available but they have just been selected and put together with care. The best and most exotic parts of the engine are certainly the heads, which are Jeff Denham 043's with Ti valves. But again they are street heads a sort of an entry level set for Jeff, as he is certainly capable of something much better.

The car is light for a street car, but not super light (1585 at the last count with my skiny ribs in it, it might be 1565 by now as I have lost some weight in the car since it was last weighed), as its all steel wings and has stock bulkheads and the like, but its stripped out inside with basically no interior except a head liner. Anything I've changed or added to the car I've allways tried to make it lighter, but not to the point of compromising drivability or reliability.

The car was driven to the track (2 1/4 hours) on a hot day with no trouble. It ran 3 11's with a best of 11.915 at 111.41mph but this was with a stinger no fan belt and slicks. The journey home took 3 hours due to a traffic jam and the car sat in stop start traffic on tick over for 45 mins at 80 degrees C no problem.

I'm really pleased with the achivment, but I would not consider it thinking outside the box. Its more like good logic and enginering.

So the big qestion for me is, what can you achive if you do really go for it? It's been said earlier by John (JMR) that unless there are class rules to restrict cc / weight there is no major development on mass, to find out what can be achived today. That said there are people trying, just for trying sake, or just general self entertainment. The good news for all of us is that most of them in Europe and a few from over the pod contribute on here. Also I think things have got a lot easier due to the availability and choice of parts, and this has made us all a bit lazy. But all the time there are people like the Skinne Bros, Johannes at JPM, with there recent achivements, and many others, I think there will be constant improvement, as all these people are committed to making things better. Its just just the progress will be slower than it would be, if we were all racing to class rules, as they were back in the day in the US!

Peter

[Lee.C]

WOW congratulation Pete - Thats  AWESOME - 3 11's and driven to and from the track - HARDCORE!

I also agree with alot of your points - it would be great to see a cc/weight class in VW racing, But its good to see there are still the few hardcore people doiin it just for the Kicks  Why do you think I am building my 2180 roller crank mototr

Well done dude 

[Stanley]

Thanks Vince for posting the video of my Buggy.

No cooling, but alternator is on.


The engine seems to be very strong as we made aroud 20 passes this week end, 9000rpm at each gear, 9200 at burn out.
No leaks, no cooling problems, rockers play have not move.

By no cooling problems do you mean no temp problems or no sign of heat damage?

[Johannes Persson]

Hello guys,

I am happy and exited to tell you that a new, very aggressive," RAPTOR mouse" was born yesterday.

1795cc, mag case, 043 heads and ida 48 carbs.

228,3hp/7990rpm and 231Nm(166.9lbs)6200rpm corrected(Din).

Have a nice weekend.

Johannes Persson

[speedwell]

any pictures ....

[Jon]