Small powerhouses and old school

[1946vw]

My 69 x 88 motor sounds alot like his "street motor" 12.7 to 1, .600 lift ,VW lifters, 48 idas, vw heads, 5.400 rods, mag case, and it makes 131 per liter. And it is 10 years old. Brian

[fish]

127hp per litre! Easy to say but just think about it for a while, how do you achieve such a result with a normally aspirated, 2 valve per cylinder, flat tappet pushrod engine which was designed back in the dark ages! Compare these figures to other normally aspirated flat 4 engines that run on super unleaded fuel and you can begin to understand the scale of this achievement. The only motors that run close to these figures that I can find are Johannes’s old 1603 mouse motor and his 1915cc motor which was in his blue car.

We are undoubtedly all very lucky to have Johannes in the AC VW world moving the game on, and sharing his knowledge with us and developing products for us to use. But for me best of all is that he is a really nice guy, and is very humble and almost embarrassed by his achievements, and would certainly never boast about any of his work. But perhaps this is the way of people who really are right out there, and know exactly what they are doing.

The truth is, he really does operate at the “next level”, and the proof, if there is any doubt, is right here on this thread.

The really interesting thing is that I’m sure this is not the end of the road for JPM and Johannes, as there will be more developments, and more figures which us mere mortals struggle to comprehend, it’s just be a matter of time!

Hat’s off, as it’s another amazing result!

Peter

x2 very nice words Peter, for a very deserving bloke..........Props, JP.

My 69 x 88 motor sounds alot like his "street motor" 12.7 to 1, .600 lift ,VW lifters, 48 idas, vw heads, 5.400 rods, mag case, and it makes 127 per liter. And it is 10 years old. Brian

Also some awesome #'s there Brian, well done, any special coating on the internals or tips you can share, cam, chamber design, etc?

[1946vw]

The heads from Steve Tims made all the difference. 208 to 220 Brian

[Jon]

At what RPM do you see 220 hp Brian? Great achievement!

And Peter S, thanks for taking the chance on a dark horse like JPM! ...he delivers!
We Scandinavians know, but this spring the Outlaws will know too!

[1946vw]

It starts making 200 at 7000 and goes up to 220 at 8400 and down to 200 at 9000. Thanks brian

[Speed-demon]

Johannes: Could You please post some info on Your new Raptor cams? I would like to know:

- cam data
- which valve springs they are made for (or which are needed)
- which engine characteristics they are made for (incl engine size)
- pricing

BR

Jens Kristian, Norway

[JS]

PM for speed-demon. 

[gareth jones]

I've been following this thread for some time now
and I am very impressed with what I have seen
Even before the thread started I ran a 1776 with K-roc 043 heads and an Engle 130
it made good power and was very driveable
but it wasn't in this league

anyway, I am now building a 1914 motor
not really a mouse I know, but definitely along those lines
I have weisco pistons, H-beam rods, very light flywheel, mag case with sleeved lifter bores etc
but I am unsure about which heads to use

so, who makes heads with the necessary flow figures, titanium valves, springs which are good for 9k and acceptable street cooling? 

I have always liked Steve Tim's work but even his signature series heads don't fit the bill
these look interesting: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=828811

any suggestions would be greatly appreciated

[TexasTom]

Gareth,

You're right, there are some amazing things and information in this thread!

What are your goals (horsepower & torque) and use for this engine? Will it be street driven? How much? Carburetion?

These questions should be asked/answered in order to lead you to the heads (and cam) for your engine.
I've had better luck with combinations knowing this beforehand; Bigger isn't always better.

Good luck with your project!
Tom

[gareth jones]

Hello Tom
thank you for your reply
I will be running 48 IDA carbs
and I will be driving the car on the street
but it most certainly won't be my daily driver
I would like to achieve 180 hp at 8000 rpm
whether or not that is a realistic aim remains to be seen
as regards the cam, I bought an FK46 for this motor about 6 months ago
however, a JPM raptor cam may well be a better option...

[Neil Davies]

Gareth, you may want to search out Pete Shattock's 1776 spec - he's run 11.9's with that motor. I think theres more info on here about it!

[TexasTom]

Where do you guys put the cc limit for a "Mouse Motor"?

I'd say under 1800cc.
The smaller it is than that, the mousier ... 

[RFbuilt]

so a 1914  is a rattier motor?   

[Peter Shattock]

Gareth, you may want to search out Pete Shattock's 1776 spec - he's run 11.9's with that motor. I think theres more info on here about it!

Gareth, I'm sure you could manage 180 at 8k my 1776cc made a best of 186hp at 7300. There is a full spec of the motor in the for sale section. I suspect Andy Marriot's engine spec is on here somewhere as well. He runs a 1914cc which must make a very similar amount if not a bit more. Both motors are similar in spec as are our cars and Andy has run a string of 12.0's, but I would bet on him seeing 11's next year.

As you will see I ran an FK87 which was a good cam for the combination, but does not have the modern thinking Johannes has put into his Raptor cams, and I would say there is a performance advantage with one of his cam's. Put it like this if I were keeping the motor I would buy a JPM cam, lifters springs and pushrods.

As others have said you need to consider your induction, head and cam combination first. If you could provide Johannes head flow details I'm sure he could recomend a cam package to make the most of them, but you need heads that flow well and have good air speed before you go anywhere.

Good luck with the project.

Peter

[Udo]

Gareth, you may want to search out Pete Shattock's 1776 spec - he's run 11.9's with that motor. I think theres more info on here about it!

Gareth, I'm sure you could manage 180 at 8k my 1776cc made a best of 186hp at 7300. There is a full spec of the motor in the for sale section. I suspect Andy Marriot's engine spec is on here somewhere as well. He runs a 1914cc which must make a very similar amount if not a bit more. Both motors are similar in spec as are our cars and Andy has run a string of 12.0's, but I would bet on him seeing 11's next year.

Hi Peter

what is the weight of the cars ?

Udo

[andy M.]

Peters car is 1340lb ( or was, probably lighter now ) and mine was 1376lb, both without driver,

andy

[Peter Shattock]

Hi Udo,

My car at race weight is about 1500lbs with me in it. Andy's is a little heavier I think, (I think the exact weights are on the weight saving thread on here) but there is not much in it in terms of weight and power difference. Basically both cars are very similar all round.

I think both cars are a great compromise between race car and street car, or street car and race car depending on how you like to look at it. We have both driven as far as EBI in them and drive the cars to the track when we race over here. Both cars turn some respectable times for small engined N/A street cars on the track, and they are certainly plenty quick enough on the street!

Peter

[Udo]

That is very lightweight . My car has 1460 lbs without driver .
But with your weight the times are ok   

Udo

[gareth jones]

Thanks for the advice Peter  PM sent

Gareth, you may want to search out Pete Shattock's 1776 spec - he's run 11.9's with that motor. I think theres more info on here about it!

Gareth, I'm sure you could manage 180 at 8k my 1776cc made a best of 186hp at 7300. There is a full spec of the motor in the for sale section. I suspect Andy Marriot's engine spec is on here somewhere as well. He runs a 1914cc which must make a very similar amount if not a bit more. Both motors are similar in spec as are our cars and Andy has run a string of 12.0's, but I would bet on him seeing 11's next year.

As you will see I ran an FK87 which was a good cam for the combination, but does not have the modern thinking Johannes has put into his Raptor cams, and I would say there is a performance advantage with one of his cam's. Put it like this if I were keeping the motor I would buy a JPM cam, lifters springs and pushrods.

As others have said you need to consider your induction, head and cam combination first. If you could provide Johannes head flow details I'm sure he could recomend a cam package to make the most of them, but you need heads that flow well and have good air speed before you go anywhere.

Good luck with the project.

Peter

[TSAF]

I am left speechless with JP motorsport.

[Simpsonshoe]

Thats the biggest crank pulley that i have ever seen

Nice work though,keep us posted dude

Is that the Berg Overachiever?

[bedjo78]

I have plan to built 64X90.5. the engine will be run on 1641CC clas.

64 crank from old bug crank
90.5A mahle
Eagle 5.352 rods
CB044 round port 40X35
Engle 120 with 1.25 rocker
weber IDF44 or 48
1-5/8 merged
comp 10:1

will my engine potential making power comparing with 69X87 with same configuration?

[dangerous]

the 40 hp crank that has the 64mm stroke,
has wider rod journals by about 1mm than the 1300-1600 crank.
Same diameter, just your rod side clearance will be excesive.

[bedjo78]

the 40 hp crank that has the 64mm stroke,
has wider rod journals by about 1mm than the 1300-1600 crank.
Same diameter, just your rod side clearance will be excesive.

Owhh....I did't notice that.  Is it posible to use 40HP Rods into my set up?

Thanks for that info's

Regards
Muz

[RFbuilt]

since we're on the subject of mouse motors

and this thread is filled with tasty info, 

i was wondering ,  on an 85.5mm bore , whats the biggest intake valve that could be run "ideally" 
JPM's mouse motor is 86mm  , if im not forgetting , its running a 40x35.5 head , 

sounds interesting,

i wonder , on a 83mm bore ,  is the 40mm too big? maybe a 37mm intake is ok?

i have both my beetle's needing motor rebuild and both have planned motors already (rather mild compare to most )

this idea is on the drawing board, but it sure as heck makes me excited

83x74  (83mm 40hp big bore kit.. mod to run on as41 case and 040 head)  not sure what is needed to be done to it
            crank, the usual 74mm crank

puts it nicely at 1601cc   kinda like the porsche super90

, cam etc still having fun with it (aka thinking LOL)

myt be fun for a lil' autocross beetle

[Jesse Wens]

40 horse bigborekit has short cilinders for 64 mm crank so shims wil be required when using stroker crank.
The 64 mm crank is stronger than people say with the neceserey mods. The weak link is the crank at the 3rd cilinder. For short burst , no pronlmes but use the power for some time and add some heat.... bearing eaten away.

nothing that can't be done but you have to know how. I would tell you if I knew but this is all they told me.
I got this from kristof at steves vw shop.
seems that he has the secret and will do the work, but no kiss and tell.
jesse

[Baked Beetle]

Johannes,

I really would like to know how that stock crank spins that high? I know everything is balanced but......not even counterweighted?

Can you fill me in on your choice as opposed to a DPR or CB performance crank?
 

[RFbuilt]

i think Johanes  mentioned way back

the reason for counterweight.. is to aleviate the weight thrown by the rod journal,rods,pistons, etc

the lighter those parts are, the more reasonably counter'd  the crank is

ofcourse  being counterweighted as a crank would always be better,
but im sure Johanes has matched every aspect of his motor, including weight of individual components to rpm relation..

his JE pistons are quite short as far as compression height goes,  and its well.. almost half the weight of cast pistons or even less

plus the overall width of the motor is narrower.. 

anyways... im also still learning alot from these guys.. so i hope sum1 could clarify my words if ever im misunderstanding anything as far as JPM and overall engine techniques hehehe

Ralf

[Baked Beetle]

Very Good Points. all of them. I'm curious about the rpm limit of using a stock forged crank that has been balanced? Better than say a cheap $200 cast crank or maybe just a s good as a 4140 CB 69mm crank.

I'm in the process of building something like this but don't want to throw expensive parts at a semi-grenade motor 

[RFbuilt]

well i think its fine  ( i hope haha)

im doing 2 motors (still gather parts)

1679cc thickwall88s
69mm cb4140 crank
engle 110
kads

1800cc thickwall88s
74mm cb4140 crank
engle 120
kads