Off the shelve engine building

[Dominick Luppino]

For a moment I thought I would apologize for the poorly picked headline for this post but the further I read the conversation I changed my mind!  Fantastic points by all and a good point about the quality of workmanship used on the V8 build. It would be interesting to hear what the price tag for that consultation was.  And some of that was paid by the summit stuff I've bought over the years...   

It's great to hear Dominic that you've had some good results with the CB's builders choice kit. I've wandered if anyone's double backed the results. Did you tweak the kit in any way? There's only one thing that bugs me about these kits. They say it's "taking away all the guess work". But hey, that's the best part!!! 

The only difference is I used the aluminum high deck case. It is a little monster and a great combo!

[Airspeed]

It's great to hear Dominic that you've had some good results with the CB's builders choice kit. I've wandered if anyone's double backed the results. Did you tweak the kit in any way? There's only one thing that bugs me about these kits. They say it's "taking away all the guess work". But hey, that's the best part!!! 

The only difference is I used the aluminum high deck case. It is a little monster and a great combo!

One of those kits was professionally build by a shop over here and dyno'd on 48mm TB's and CB's EFI system and made an astonishing 223hp (flywheel calculated from wheel-hp) with fan and muffler, no air filters. Thats extremely good as its a bit of a heart breaker dyno and we have many references on air cooled engines on this rolling road. I was honestly surprised.

[Dominick Luppino]

It's great to hear Dominic that you've had some good results with the CB's builders choice kit. I've wandered if anyone's double backed the results. Did you tweak the kit in any way? There's only one thing that bugs me about these kits. They say it's "taking away all the guess work". But hey, that's the best part!!! 

The only difference is I used the aluminum high deck case. It is a little monster and a great combo!

One of those kits was professionally build by a shop over here and dyno'd on 48mm TB's and CB's EFI system and made an astonishing 223hp (flywheel calculated from wheel-hp) with fan and muffler, no air filters. Thats extremely good as its a bit of a heart breaker dyno and we have many references on air cooled engines on this rolling road. I was honestly surprised.

It was Dynoed by Jack at JayCee and made 215 @6800 RPM and was still pulling, it could have gone to 7200 very easy but I thought that was enough power for my kid to start out with. It was picking up 10hp per every 500 RPM, do the math.

[Andy]

I see the CB engine kit comes with a 2673 crank which is 84mm stroke, type1 mains, chevy rods. What sort of use will this withstand. I thought the general consensus was it was not suitable for high hp use as it is more likely to flex.  Than say a 82mm crank. Though 200hp is high hp for a street car.

I ask as I bought a 2673 crank to build a 2332 for strip and street use but have put it to one side, due to reading that if you want to use an 84mm crank it should have type 4 mains.

So should I get back to building the 2332 engine.

 

[dragvw2180]

 I would build the heck out of the 2332.  If I was going turbo I might hesitate but N/A wouldn't worry me at all.  We ran a 2332 for years in John Toomeys car with type 1 mains . I hope it is wedgemated ?   Mike McCarthy

[Andy]

That's interesting to hear, looks like the 2332 is back on.   

Is wedgemating necessary, it might be difficult to get it done in the UK, I am not aware of anyone that can do it.

Thanks, it looked like I had killed this thread, for a while 

[dragvw2180]

 In your post you said you were going to race it , I would definately have it done . I am sure someone does it there. Mike McCarthy

[Andy]

You're right, I forgot i said I had bought it for strip use, I'll look into wedgemating.

[BeetleBug]

You're right, I forgot i said I had bought it for strip use, I'll look into wedgemating.

I would not wedgemate it. Search on this forum and you will find info and even some calculations. Make sure you have friction, use a big washer, use enough torque and a well matched clutch combination for your car and use. I´m at 311 whp and 370 nm, racing with DOT slicks, no wedgemate - no problem.

Flex and 84-86 chevy journal crank.. interesting. It is a combination that have been used for years and in high rev engines. Putting any big stroke crank in a original case is basically not a good idea but it works and it is just a engine. Do it. If worried I would look into a better case.

Just my 2 cents..

-BB-
 

[busgods]

Got similar tips from buddies (with more engine building experience) about wedge mating as BB suggests. It's pretty difficult to get it done right. It seems that one big problem with 8 dowel off the shelve cranks with flywheels is the fit. The load quite often is not divided even on to all 8 dowels. I had my crank machined for oversize dowels together with the german flywheel and it surely is now a tight snug fit. Not sure if this is done by others but seems to be a common practice here in Helsinki with aftermarket cranks. My power aspirations for build related to that crank are nowhere near 300 horses so I'm quite confident that it will hold as long as I do the assembly proprerly.

3 cents?

[dragvw2180]

 I hope I do not sound like I am being argumentative but every engine is differant and so is each stroke.  If you have a 1641 turbo engine with 311 rwhp as an example your torque is going to be totally differant than say a 2387 with the same hp. I will use my engine as an example , 2387 turbo with a Kawell cam that is similar to an FK10 makes dynoed 366 rwhp , made 350 hp at 3700 rpm's and carried it over 7000. The torque is like a diesel and pulls like a freight train . This is a street engine that I raced in Pro Outlaw here , one that is going into my street car. This engine would have torn the dowels out the first pass I made. I destroyed a stroker crank ( SCAT ) and flywheel back in the 80's because I did not wedgemate it , that is why I highly suggest wedgemating anything that will be drag raced and has a stroke of more tha 76 mm. If anyone ever needs wedgemating done and cannot get it done locally I highly suggest Keiths Auto Parts here in the US on the East coast.  http://www.keithsautoparts.com/        They are reasonably priced ( 150.00 usd for wedgemate) and work quality is excellent, again I have used them since the 80's. Getting a clutch set up perfectly so that it will slip on take off yet hold the rest of the way down the track takes alot of T&Tune time and will cost you parts. Even with CM if your car 60 fts well it is alot of strain on those dowel pins. Again I only suggest it because I do not want anyone to make the same mistakes I made. Mike McCarthy

[Shag55]

A little off topic but what heads are you using on your motor Mike?

[dragvw2180]

Sorry about getting off topic ,  CB 044 castings that Dave Kawell gave some love to and again this is a street engine. I was really impressed how well they work.  Mike McCarthy

[JS]

So, I have finally had the time to finish the car and travel to JPM for a dyno test.

Specifications:
VW mag case
82mm crank
VW flywheel
Carillo 912 length rods
JP pistons
Mahle 94mm cylinders
JPM Raptor cam and lifters
JPM MS250 heads
Manley SS 46x38mm
K-800 valve springs
JPM 5-stud rockers
JPM alu pushrods
Italian 51,4mm IDA´s by JPM
JPM Raptor venturies.
Super flo round port manifolds
Stepped header, 1 5/8" - 1 3/4" - 2"
12,5:1 CR
Joe Hunt magneto
Modified oil system. Blocked oil cooler, thermostat removed.
26mm Schadek oil pump
CB Atomic cooler
External oil filter.
Statoil 98 octane pump gas.

Dynoed 265,7hp(DIN)@6970rpm, 290,9nm@5760rpm. Stinger, no belt.

Seems to work fine on the street, but have not had the time to take long drives.

No modifications to parts except simple stuff like minimal match porting and shuffle pinned manifolds.
The only "sore spot" for me was that we had to change the Oteva valve springs for K-800´s due to valve float at 6950rpm. This is because the custom valves on the heads are longer and thereby heavier than normal T1 and T4(MS230) valves.
Titanium inlet valves are ordered from Manley, will put them in together with the Oteva´s after SCC.

So there - off the shelf engine building. 116hp per litre.

[Eddie DVK]

^^^^ Whoooo 

[Jesse/DVK]

Wow!

[volkmaster]

Sweet numbers JS!!
Coming to Tierp?
/Herman

[JS]

Of course Herman! Leaving tomorrow! 

[Elnef]

Nice numbers 

How much spring preasure did you set youre k-800 build in and max ?

Thanks John

[spoolin70]

Great results, you've got to be pleased 

Can I ask what pushrod tubes you used ?
I recall reading that some tubes rub against  jpm pushrods due to their large dia.

Thanks
Darren

[JS]

Hi Darren.

They do rub, at least on my very narrow engine. However it is minimal, you can see it in the anodizing but not feel it with your finger.

[freakpower]

Congrats!!
Really impressive

[fish]

Congrats on the results,
All parts are "off" one shelf or another  the difference is the combination and attention paid to preparing the parts by the engine builder.

[richie]

Excellent news Jonny, look forward to seeing how those dyno numbers add up to track performance, no pressure on you   See you later?

cheers Richie

[mymedusa]

How much money is in such an off the shelf engine?

[fish]

It's certainly an impressive engine built by one of the best with some of the best off the shelf parts available.
I would be guessing if I said €60 per HP

[Peter Shattock]

Hi Jonny,

Great numbers, hope you have some fun at the weekend chasing down the big guns in your street car!

So this is where we are at now with this silly old 2 valve per cylinder flat rapper pushrod engine 113 bhp/litre with good quality off the shelf parts.

Bloody impressive Jonny that is what I call progress!

Enjoy!
 
Peter

[Rocket-Racing]

Guessing Johnny (JS) is one happy camper today. First time on the track with the newly built engine, 10.99@194 km/h. 
That's seriously fast for a streetable beetle with a N/A engine! Congratulations!

[Peter Shattock]

10's!

Fantastic Jonny very well done!

That is going to be a serious weapon on the street!

Peter

[Peter Shattock]

Just thinking about that 10. You and your car have just joined what must be a fairly short worldwide list of people and cars that have done that with a n/a a/c street legal beetle. Even if you forget all the what is a street car and include them all!

I like it that you have done it with a mag and some ida's too, nice plain and simple combination.

Good luck today.

Peter