How much money to run 10s in a street car?now with part2, The evolution to turbo

[richie]

It is indeed a cool idea and one that will interest most everybody because as JHU put it: the triangle says no, however....
what cannot be underestimated here is the VAST knowledge Mr. Webb has with this subject. I think knowing 'exactly' what's neccesary and what not, is key here.
That experience is worth at least 5-10K alone 

Walter

that is what I am hoping,I know you to set your aims for a 10 sec car,but I wont handicap myself but trying to make it go round corners,as long as it goes round roundabouts that will be good enough for me

I know what it needs from my experiences before,but back then it was a gradual evolution,this time I need to be straight on it,a couple of shakedown passes then open the bottle and hope I got it right,also some of the parts i used back then arent available anymore,hopefully there are other suitable parts but I wont know until I try them.
Also I wont be using a cabrio,so less weight to handicap me,but will that help or will it cause more problems getting the power down?

cheers richie 

[Erlend / bug66]

Cool thread Mr Webb.

Doping 10's on the cheap... And drive home. The triangle of speed sais no. But can it be done? ... I think that depends on what YOU mean by cheap.

Most things in life ends up costing more in the long run when you have the needed money up front.
Maybe supercharged engines dont follow this logic?
But if someone think they might, what base engine would give tens most reliable?

I know how much it will cost,as that figure is all I have to spend so i may have to do a little wheeling and dealing to get there,and yes cheap is a relative word,I think I could run 12s for less than 5000pounds,but it would be a very light car and not suitable to run 10s, carefull planning should help achieve this but we will see.

My ultimate aim will be to leave the race car at home next august and drive to norway,while I am there on holiday I will see if there is any local racing,if there is they maybe go to the track and see if I can do it there,any ideas?

maybe that is not achivable in the time scale but I will try and then who knows

cheers richie

10s debut on SCC2013? 

[richie]

this will definitely be a thread to follow
a cheap busbox conversion (stock ratios/no nosecone swap) would be very interesting
just for the fun of it, try a couple of runs without the bottle/slicks/stinger (real street trim), should do a 12??? 
i really like wbx conversions and have done a few, but if you dont take advantage of the bigger bore (at least 97), its better to stick to an aluminum type 1 case, heads will be much easier to get

Karl

thats my thought as well,I dont think a 4inch engine will be economically viable,the heads alone cost to much and are so difficult to get in common castings[comp elims for example]

As i am not trying to build the best N/A engine it isnt so important,the 94bore stuff will do what I want,and keeps it more in line with what most people can relate to with there own cars.
I  will proberly use a mag case as well as I know it up to the task.

I will do a couple of passes as I drove it to the track to get the car set up right before trying to run a good number


cheers richie

[richie]

Cool thread Mr Webb.

Doping 10's on the cheap... And drive home. The triangle of speed sais no. But can it be done? ... I think that depends on what YOU mean by cheap.

Most things in life ends up costing more in the long run when you have the needed money up front.
Maybe supercharged engines dont follow this logic?
But if someone think they might, what base engine would give tens most reliable?

I know how much it will cost,as that figure is all I have to spend so i may have to do a little wheeling and dealing to get there,and yes cheap is a relative word,I think I could run 12s for less than 5000pounds,but it would be a very light car and not suitable to run 10s, carefull planning should help achieve this but we will see.

My ultimate aim will be to leave the race car at home next august and drive to norway,while I am there on holiday I will see if there is any local racing,if there is they maybe go to the track and see if I can do it there,any ideas?

maybe that is not achivable in the time scale but I will try and then who knows

cheers richie

10s debut on SCC2013? 

Testing on the autobarn on the way,sounds like fun

[Erlend / bug66]

Cool thread Mr Webb.

Doping 10's on the cheap... And drive home. The triangle of speed sais no. But can it be done? ... I think that depends on what YOU mean by cheap.

Most things in life ends up costing more in the long run when you have the needed money up front.
Maybe supercharged engines dont follow this logic?
But if someone think they might, what base engine would give tens most reliable?

I know how much it will cost,as that figure is all I have to spend so i may have to do a little wheeling and dealing to get there,and yes cheap is a relative word,I think I could run 12s for less than 5000pounds,but it would be a very light car and not suitable to run 10s, carefull planning should help achieve this but we will see.

My ultimate aim will be to leave the race car at home next august and drive to norway,while I am there on holiday I will see if there is any local racing,if there is they maybe go to the track and see if I can do it there,any ideas?

maybe that is not achivable in the time scale but I will try and then who knows

cheers richie

10s debut on SCC2013? 

Testing on the autobarn on the way,sounds like fun

Kudos if you frive it all the way, do a couple of 10s passes and drive it home again! 

You should add a stereo for the trip

[Chris bugster]

Hi Richie
Does it have to be a Bug? A good Bug is expensive. How about a Fiat 126? They are cheap here, about $100 and light, ours weighs 650kg with full cage and IRS box and Ali cased stroker. It could easily go much lighter.

BTW- Richie, do you still have my Berg shifter in your Cabrio? Any chance of getting it back? 

[richie]

Hi Richie
Does it have to be a Bug? A good Bug is expensive. How about a Fiat 126? They are cheap here, about $100 and light, ours weighs 650kg with full cage and IRS box and Ali cased stroker. It could easily go much lighter.

BTW- Richie, do you still have my Berg shifter in your Cabrio? Any chance of getting it back? 

Yes it has to be a VW ,and not sure what shifter you are talking about,the one in the cabrio has been in there since 96 when I bought it from bergs way before I knew any of you?

[Chris bugster]

Sorry for the misunderstanding, Richie. After I rolled my 1303, Max asked me if ''Richie'' could borrow my shifter and I thought he meant you, but it must have been someone else. Good luck with the project.

[richie]

Sorry for the misunderstanding, Richie. After I rolled my 1303, Max asked me if ''Richie'' could borrow my shifter and I thought he meant you, but it must have been someone else. Good luck with the project.

No idea Chris,I only know the story of your 1303 ,nothing more

cheers richie

[Wunder Wim]

Hi Richie

maybe this is what you are looking for...

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1246938

Wim

[richie]

Thanks I did notice that today,but the ratios are to short to run 10s with the mph needed,shame as its a good price

cheers richie

[Airspeed]

What 60ft, 1/8 time and 1/4 mph do you think you need Richie?

[richie]

Walter

From memory the old cabs best nitrous 60ft was 1.48[only once though,the 10s were 1.50s] 6.96 1/8 mile and 10.88@125mph in 2003,only just realised it will be 10s years next year since I did it 

I think I can get it to 60ft mid 1.40s now so hopefully 6.70s 1/8 and 10.?? 1/4[dont want to jinx myslef with those goals yet


cheers richie

[BeetleBug]

What 60ft, 1/8 time and 1/4 mph do you think you need Richie?

Now were talking! Only a car with lots of hp can somewhat make up for a poor start. Look at the white Bello (spell check) Porsche 911 with 1000+ hp as a example, low 10's and high 9's with VERY soft launches. Besides, a nitrous car do have its advantage in the start and will never have the top end speed of a turbo monster.

1.40 - 1.45 should be possible without spending a fortune.

-BB-

[Jesse/DVK]

Very cool thread! Will be following this to help my own bug getting faster .

So Beetlebug what does it take to get such 60ft times? Apart from being a good driver 

[richie]

 Besides, a nitrous car do have its advantage in the start and will never have the top end speed of a turbo monster.

1.40 - 1.45 should be possible without spending a fortune.

-BB-

2 stages? i havent tried it but its something I will consider later on,and I agree those 60fts should be possible,mabye quicker with devolpment,there is a Nitrous pan car running low 1.30s over here,and I am sure it went 1.30s before the bars were added,getting the weight down by about 95kg or 200lbs from th eold cab should really help

cheers richie

[BeetleBug]

So Beetlebug what does it take to get such 60ft times? Apart from being a good driver 

Apart from luck you need a good strip, two good tires, the correct tire pressure, just enough clutch, a well planed rear suspension and enough hp.

BB

[henk]

i think this is everybody's new favorite topic.
looking forward to the end result.

henk!!!

[BeetleBug]

i think this is everybody's new favorite topic.
henk!!!

Agree! Who cares about expensive, vintage shit, show'n shine and old car clubs when you can drive 10's 

[richie]

I think I found the right donor car,will be looking at it this weekend,if its as described then I will be dragging it home soon

cheers richie

[Shane Noone]

Hi Richie,

Once you have worked out what it takes, for fecks sake let me know as no matter what I do or how much I spend. I'm still stuck in the 12's darn it !!!!     

Cheers,

Shane.

[dannyboy]

Hi Richie,

Once you have worked out what it takes, for fecks sake let me know as no matter what I do or how much I spend. I'm still stuck in the 12's darn it !!!!     

Cheers,

Shane.

thats your own silly fault  TAKE OFF THE BELT AND ADD NITROUS

[richie]

thats your own silly fault for listening to Danny  TAKE OFF THE BELT AND ADD LOTS OF NITROUS

Fixed it for you


Shane I do plan on sharing my findings,however good or bad they are, and your car is a perfect example of one that could see huge improvements with gas

Now while this isnt totally apples to apples comparission as 3rd and 4th gear ratio were changed between,

but my cabrio ran bext of 13.27 N/A against the 10.88 with nitrous,is that a big enough improvement for you?

cheers richie

[leec]

I'm looking forward to this build,

Wishing my Wiseco's were nitrous versions now

Out of interest what were the gear ratios in the cab with the nitrous motor?

Lee

[dannyboy]

my car ran 11.8 n/a,  30 shot of nitrous 11.45 so it does make massive improvements for a small amount of money cant wait to see what another 30 hp of gas does this weekend

[Shane Noone]

thats your own silly fault for listening to Danny  TAKE OFF THE BELT AND ADD LOTS OF NITROUS

Fixed it for you


Shane I do plan on sharing my findings,however good or bad they are, and your car is a perfect example of one that could see huge improvements with gas

Now while this isnt totally apples to apples comparission as 3rd and 4th gear ratio were changed between,

but my cabrio ran bext of 13.27 N/A against the 10.88 with nitrous,is that a big enough improvement for you?

cheers richie

I remember how frustrated you were when your cab with the JMR 2332 was only making 13.2's but didn't you re-work that 2332 and as you say tailored the gear ratios's to better suit ...? Surely your saying you took a 190 - 200 hp motor that ran 13.2 changed the gear ratios added a typical 50-60 shot of NOS and bingo your in the 10.8's   If that is what your saying then freakin awesome and pass me the blue bottle now   

Danny, will you quit with the no belt and NOS already  I will do one day mate 

 Seriously back to Richie's original quest but with a slight twist - how much N/A bhp and Torque does it take to propel a factory weight Beetle into the 11's and the 10's with conventional T1 transmission allowing a close 3rd and 4th of any combination and a choice from 4.37 / 4.12 / 3.88 factory spec final drives.....

Cheers,

Shane.

[richie]

You need to read back abit for the nitrous shot needed your way off

Seriously the original 2332 was way to slow for me,never even went near that 13.27,so I bought a kit and it went high 12s,then with a few tweeks 12.05 best[remembr the 5th gear episode against the bentley? ] then we made a couple of changes to the cam and heads and went 11.5 still with the old gearbox,at USC that year I broke the stock 1st gear when I messed up with a sportsman tree against the pro tree I was expecting,we changed the ratios and put a mainshaft in it,next meeting 11.12 best,just from the ratio changes,then next meet into the 10s
Thats a simplified version

As to how much hp needed to run 11s n/a and 10s n/a,there are so many variables I couldnt accurately answer,I think you need about 300hp to run 10s off the top of my head,but thats only a guesstimate,about 210 to run 11s,but the ratios would be a pig on the street

Danny can you refresh my memory as to how much your car weighs for comparission?


cheers richie

[richie]

I'm looking forward to this build,

Wishing my Wiseco's were nitrous versions now

Out of interest what were the gear ratios in the cab with the nitrous motor?

Lee

Lee I can only remember 1st and 4th 3.78 and 1.12 with a 3.88 R&P,I would guess that it was around a 2.20 2nd and 1.50 3rd

and I ran about 80hp on mahles so the wisecos will take a bit


cheers richie

[dannyboy]

760kgs with driver 690 without  shane you know im only messing with you  

[richie]

my car ran 11.8 n/a,  30 shot of nitrous 11.45 so it does make massive improvements for a small amount of money cant wait to see what another 30 hp of gas does this weekend

11.8@1672lbs = 201hp
11.45@1672lbs=220hp

so 250hp=10.97@122.08mph

Realistically you will proberly need another 15hp to actually see the 10s,but your gearbox changes may make a difference as well

Shane you got weight and hp for your car? I will see what the magic ball says you need to add for 10s

cheers richie