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Author Topic: Small powerhouses and old school  (Read 649725 times)
Jon
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« Reply #90 on: December 21, 2007, 16:15:55 pm »

And even more:
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benssp
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« Reply #91 on: December 21, 2007, 16:27:11 pm »

What 'CC' will it be ? and what size valves? Grin
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Jon
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« Reply #92 on: December 21, 2007, 16:47:50 pm »

It will be 1603cc
The strange size comes from Johannes wish to use Stock old VW cylinders, he takes them up from 85,5 to 86 and have pistons to suit.

The heads are 043 with 40x32mm valves...

I love that 180mm flywheel!  Cool
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Johannes Persson
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« Reply #93 on: December 21, 2007, 16:49:03 pm »

Hi benssp,
The valve size is 40x32 and the cc is 1603 (86x69mm).

Johannes Persson
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Martin Greaves
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« Reply #94 on: December 21, 2007, 19:58:21 pm »

Have you got a better photo of the flywheel.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2007, 22:06:27 pm by gold65turbo » Logged

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richie
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« Reply #95 on: December 21, 2007, 20:57:43 pm »

Hav ou got a better photo of the flywheel.

Spellcheck?HuhHuhHuh?
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Martin Greaves
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« Reply #96 on: December 21, 2007, 22:06:06 pm »

Sorry need a new keyboard Smiley key are not working that good.
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Trond Dahl
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« Reply #97 on: December 21, 2007, 23:03:11 pm »

Gotta love that flywheel...
cant wait for more progress on this very interesting project
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Tom G.
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« Reply #98 on: December 22, 2007, 12:15:04 pm »

Hi benssp,
The valve size is 40x32 and the cc is 1603 (86x69mm).

Johannes Persson

Are the pistons standard pistons from JE or are their individual produce to customers details?? How much cost them...

Very very nice project Johannes...

Bye
Tom
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Bewitched666
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« Reply #99 on: December 22, 2007, 17:40:11 pm »

Whats the weight of that flywheel btw? Huh
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Jon
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« Reply #100 on: December 23, 2007, 02:55:57 am »

Are the pistons standard pistons from JE or are their individual produce to customers details?? How much cost them...

They are custom order thru Johannes (JPM)

Whats the weight of that flywheel btw? Huh

It weighs 3.2 kg!
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lawrence
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« Reply #101 on: December 23, 2007, 03:27:39 am »

That is a 7 pound flywheel!! Johannes, does that have an effect on driveability? Is this strictly a race motor? Its gonna rev like a dirtbike.  Grin
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Bewitched666
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« Reply #102 on: December 24, 2007, 13:43:13 pm »

Damn a 7 pound flywheel,gonna rev over 8000 rpm  with that Grin
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K-Roc
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« Reply #103 on: December 25, 2007, 20:52:17 pm »

Damn a 7 pound flywheel,gonna rev over 8000 rpm  with that Grin

I see that flywheel (As cool as it is..)as an effective tool to achieve a high number on the Dyno but not to an advantage on the dragstrip.
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Jon
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« Reply #104 on: December 25, 2007, 21:48:18 pm »

Johannes told me that he has tested his other R&D engine with both heavy and super light flywheel.
He got the best time and the highest trap speed with the lightest one. Thats why it's still in the combo.
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Bruce
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« Reply #105 on: December 26, 2007, 20:25:17 pm »

I'd like to know his launch rpm with that flywheel. 
I also think that flywheel weighs less than 7 lbs.  My own is 8 lbs and it doesn't have the big windows in it.
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SOB/RFH
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« Reply #106 on: December 27, 2007, 09:22:23 am »

Hey. Cool project Johanes. I did one 1600 a few years ago with mostly stock parts (10:1 C/R and a 280 deg cam) and we got a 14.6 out of it in a heavy car. My experience, if it has any value, is the small motor, light car equals light flywheel....heavy car and small motor on the other hand can successfully be ran with heavy flywheel....both combos need high 1:st gearing and high revs to move and will eat R/P:s like they eat hamburgers in the US...........So what R/P is going to be used and will it survive the first 20 set up runs on the sticky local track or will it be saved by a lot of dyno time Smiley .........It’s about time that someone kill Sweden’s "best ET so far with a 1600 cc motor" from back in the early 90's.....13.1 in an oval body car, owned by a guy named "Knutte". Car is still around but has a big (broken?) motor and  lot of bling-bling. Happiness is a Hot VW!!
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Roman
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« Reply #107 on: December 27, 2007, 19:37:52 pm »

Damn a 7 pound flywheel,gonna rev over 8000 rpm  with that Grin

I see that flywheel (As cool as it is..)as an effective tool to achieve a high number on the Dyno but not to an advantage on the dragstrip.

Its gonna rev like a dirtbike.  Grin

A light flywheel will give a great throttle response, but explain to me how a light flywheel will increase the RPM and give higher hp readings on a dyno?

I know Johannes has a tranny with really high gearing made for his blue super beetle and the R/D engine that revs over 9500. If he had a "normal" tranny he would do the quarter in only 3 gears.
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Johannes Persson
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« Reply #108 on: December 28, 2007, 00:01:10 am »

Hi Again,

Lawrence, the light flywheel will affect driveability, the motor will rew, both up and down, faster which can be experienced like its   harder to "cruse" with.This engine will primarely be built for the "strip", but with a heavier flywheel it will be very streetable.

Bruce, the launch rpm in the car that I am going to use(type 1 -63 1650lbs) will probably be between 7-8k.

K-Rock, There will be time slips the comming summer with this "Mouse Motor", the most objectiv dyno is the dragstrip, is´nt it?.
I am  not trying to "show off" or "brag" about doing this "Mouse Motor" project,I do it because of my dedication to the type 1 engine,learning and understanding the internal combustion engine and shareing experience with you Loungers.

Tom, I will e-mail you later.

SOB, good input.The car to be used with the "Mouse Motor" is a type 1 -63 1650lbs(750kg)at the starting line, it has a low ratio transaxel R/P 4.86:1  close ratio with 1.37:1 on the fourth gear.The rims are Saco five bolt and the tires are M&H 6x26-15.
On a small engine, the weight of the rotating engine parts has to be in relation to the vehicle weight and gearing.
BTW in 1997 I did several 12.50s 165km/h with my 1679cc in my old yellow type 1.

The shortblock is almost done by now.

Enjoy the pictures.

Johannes Persson
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K-Roc
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« Reply #109 on: December 28, 2007, 00:26:13 am »


K-Rock, There will be time slips the comming summer with this "Mouse Motor", the most objectiv dyno is the dragstrip, is´nt it?.
I am  not trying to "show off" or "brag" about doing this "Mouse Motor" project,I do it because of my dedication to the type 1 engine,learning and understanding the internal combustion engine and shareing experience with you Loungers.


Hi Johannes I just want to let you know that I think it is awesome that you are able to make this project happen, I wish I had the means and time to do the same, In my mind I figure that with the flywheel that light that on launch once the inertia is released from the flywheel it would be hard to replace it to keep the car accelrating out of the hole and down the track. However with you old times of 12.50's at 165 Kmh, that would prove me wrong Smiley and that wouldn't be the first time! LOL!
Good luck with the project and I look forward to seeing some killer results.

K-Roc,
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Johannes Persson
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« Reply #110 on: December 28, 2007, 00:00:02 am »

1.
Machining rods to get equal weight in all four rods big and small end.



2.Checking the straitness of the rods.



3.Complete crank assembly on the balancing machine (a german Schenk balancer).



4.Final cleaning of crank.



5.Checking cam to lifter clerances and end play on camshaft.



6.Adjusting intake centerline.



7.



8.Machining cylinder deck.



9.The machining is done on a fixture where the case is leveld on the mains.

« Last Edit: January 15, 2009, 20:46:03 pm by Trond Dahl » Logged
Zach Gomulka
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« Reply #111 on: December 28, 2007, 01:25:13 am »

A non counterweighted crankshaft?! You are a braver man than I!! Grin

What type of pressure plate is that? Not sure if you already know, but Kennedy offers aluminium versions of their pressure plates that are 3lbs lighter than stock. Something to think about Wink

Good luck!!
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Bruce
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« Reply #112 on: December 28, 2007, 05:17:54 am »

Damn a 7 pound flywheel,gonna rev over 8000 rpm  with that Grin

I see that flywheel (As cool as it is..)as an effective tool to achieve a high number on the Dyno but not to an advantage on the dragstrip.

Its gonna rev like a dirtbike.  Grin

A light flywheel will give a great throttle response, but explain to me how a light flywheel will increase the RPM and give higher hp readings on a dyno? 
The flywheel has no effect on how high an engine can rev.  The engine's breathing, cam, valvetrain, etc. are what affect the max rpm.

If the engine is on a dyno that uses a water brake, you won't see the effect of the flywheel since that type of dyno takes static rpm power readings. 
However, if the engine is in a car which is on an inertial dyno, a light flywheel will show a higher hp reading than the same engine with a heavy flywheel.  The resistance provided by an inertial dyno is the moment of inertia of the rollers the rear tires ride on.  The dyno measures how fast the car can accelerate the rollers.  A lighter flywheel means there's more power available to accelerate the rollers.
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Bewitched666
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« Reply #113 on: December 28, 2007, 10:12:48 am »

Thats the biggest crank pulley that i have ever seen Grin

Nice work though,keep us posted dude Cool
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Tom G.
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« Reply #114 on: December 28, 2007, 11:06:28 am »

BTW do i need a high pressure plate for such a 1600 with nearly 115lbs? Or is it also possible to take a good Std new Luk plate with cushin grib disc?? Because this combination i have in my 1951ccm...and it functioned,my tires are burning:-))

Bye
Tom
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Bewitched666
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« Reply #115 on: December 28, 2007, 18:19:06 pm »

I would upgrade to a high pressure plate Tom buts thats my 2 cents Grin
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The Ideaman
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« Reply #116 on: December 30, 2007, 17:05:16 pm »

I think I'll join the queue as well. I might be interested in you air shift trany as well if you are changing wholesale, or if not if you're prepared to share some info.......... as the shifts sound amazing on the Bugin 32 DVD, I seam to remember it was based on a To#¤ta 5 speed from the Hot VW's feature and it certainly sounded like a 5 speed on the DVD, nice idea I thought with the small cube motor.

Peter
I believe in the HVW's article, it was a To#¤ta rearend.  I'd bet he has since updated to a 9 inch ford with profiled aluminum spool and rifle drilled axles to save weight.  The car is super tiny in person.  I saw it at the Phoenix national event near the scales in '00.  You can almost trip over it.  It takes huge dedication to make a car like this competitive.  Brian, what are you going to do with the dragster after the motors are sold?
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drgouk
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« Reply #117 on: January 03, 2008, 12:24:58 pm »

Damn a 7 pound flywheel,gonna rev over 8000 rpm  with that Grin

I see that flywheel (As cool as it is..)as an effective tool to achieve a high number on the Dyno but not to an advantage on the dragstrip.

Its gonna rev like a dirtbike.  Grin

A light flywheel will give a great throttle response, but explain to me how a light flywheel will increase the RPM and give higher hp readings on a dyno? 
The flywheel has no effect on how high an engine can rev.  The engine's breathing, cam, valvetrain, etc. are what affect the max rpm.

If the engine is on a dyno that uses a water brake, you won't see the effect of the flywheel since that type of dyno takes static rpm power readings. 
However, if the engine is in a car which is on an inertial dyno, a light flywheel will show a higher hp reading than the same engine with a heavy flywheel.  The resistance provided by an inertial dyno is the moment of inertia of the rollers the rear tires ride on.  The dyno measures how fast the car can accelerate the rollers.  A lighter flywheel means there's more power available to accelerate the rollers.


Bruce it depends on weather the water brake engine dyno is computer controled and you can acclerate the engine, Whats called a "power run" not a static test. THe effect of lighter internal components will show during this type of testing. A superflow 902 or a dts dyno can carryout this type of testing.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2008, 12:31:27 pm by drgouk » Logged
Johannes Persson
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« Reply #118 on: January 11, 2008, 01:41:18 am »

Description of the pictures will follow:


Welding of combustion chambers, mainly to get the desired comp ratio because of the small displasement.







A small welding is done on the sparkplug side of the intakeport, the welding is massive to the underside of the head.


Welded and machined intake flange.


New bigger alu bronze seats installed, alu bronze has the same heat expansion as aluminum and it also transfer heat a lot better than for example steel seats.











Combustion chamber,intake and ex port done, note how close the camber wall is to the valve on the none sparkplug side, this is to get the extension of the intake port shaped as a venturi.This boosts the flow from 10mm lift and up it also improves the quality of incomming mixture, in my experience, unshrouding the vale at this side will improve the flow on low lifts but will decrease the power.



The intake port is filled on the long side radius with BELZONA 1111 to get the correct shape and sizes.



Big Beef has become "SMALL STEAK"



I am really suprised of the flow numbers from a 40mm intake valve and 86mm bore.
Flownumbers CFM at 25"H2O.
lift(mm)              Flow(intake)             Flow(exhaust)
2                       42,6                        39,5
4                        81,3                       73,3
6                        111,4                     96,5
8                        136,7                     115,5
10                      159,4                     130,3
12                      177,5                     141,8
14                      188,2                     148,5
16                      194,9                     152,5

The Port velocity(intake) meassured in the center of the port at the flange is 298ft/s this is where the port is the biggest.
Same measurements on the ex port is 324ft/s.The outlet is only 34mm, going too big on the outlet will slow down the speed and the overall power will drop.
First I did some tests with an old head to see what intake flow numbers I could reach, when I saw the unexpected high numbers I had to increase the ex valve from 32mm to 35,5mm.

Regards
Johannes

« Last Edit: November 29, 2008, 02:53:48 am by JHU » Logged
Jon
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« Reply #119 on: January 11, 2008, 13:30:38 pm »

I think it is fantastic that a professional like you lets us see your "magic". I'm trying to soak up all the info i can so I'll will be tuned for the  duration.
This is going to be one special little engine.  Cool
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