To BERM or not to BERM - is that the question?

[SplitMan]

Gents,
I am fortunate enough to own a set of brand new, first run Flat-4 BRM wheels... AND a perfect, super nice set of the real deal Speedwell magnesiums. Sounds like bragging - but I am NOT - I have got a problem on my hands...actually many problems. I have got too many projects, too many cars I would like to finish and it all needs money...honey.

Therefore I am *debating* if I should sell my real BRMs or not. They represent a lot of useless cash and those thousands of EURos sure could do a lot good in the engine bay or on other areas of my Looker, or on some of the other projects. With the Flat4s I have got the look, the performance and the useage I need...

Do real BRMs on the shelf really make you that much happier? I know all the good arguments, that is why I forked out the cash to begin with....but is it really worth it? And where will BRMs be in the future?...are the prices increasing or stabilizing? Is the feeling of "genuiness" really that important.

(Sorry JHU ..... who told me on the phone: "if you even have to ask that question on the Lounge - you don't belong there". And I might be putting my foot in my mouth for doing it amongst you guys...but hey...)

[Zach Gomulka]

You know that the second you get rid of them, you will regret it! Sell the FF copies, and use the real deal. It may take a little longer to save up the money to finish the car, but it will be well worth it in the long run.

[Jon]

(Sorry JHU ..... who told me on the phone: "if you even have to ask that question on the Lounge - you don't belong there".)

I think you misunderstood me SplitMan...  but what the hell, I can think of several of your projects I would let go in a heartbeat to save those wheels... 

[Soddli]

For me it's simple :-)
Keep the real deal and use them on a car.
If you won't use them on a car, then sell them....but hey...that's me...hehe.

[Lee.C]

use the real ones dude 

[Dave Galassi]

That is a tough one.  I hope this helps.

I have a number of friends who have purchased and sold sets since the early eighties.  From Gary Shubrook to Troy Palmer and Mark Herbert's sets.  There is no correct answer. 

I don't think Troy (I could be wrong) and several others I know regret it for a moment......they demand maintenance if you want to keep them clean and they are fragile.  Run them and risk them.  Heck, even if you don't maintain or run them they can go bad!  The money you could sell them for could buy a lot of parts/labor/ speed that you could enjoy as well, if not more.  To add to this argument, even if you sold them, they still pop up for sale and you could probably find another set, Gary recently did( if you are willing to pay the price, which has never gone down since they were made).

The flip side?  They are BRMs.  Period.  History, patina, rarity, attrition rate, cost, nostalgia.  Many of the same characteristics that make them a liability make them an asset!  If you are into the authenticity of building or restoring a real period car, then you should use the real deal.  I believe it makes a difference.  The car I drove at our recent Drag Day had all period parts on it and, for me, it felt right, like I was driving a VW hot rod circa 1966. 

I have discussed this with many people over the years and each time the same issues surface. 

Best of luck with your decision.  You are certainly doing your best to make a well informed one.

[Rocket-Racing]

Difficult question..
Real BRM's are perhaps the ultimate thing to have for cal-look guys like us.
On the other hand they have become so expensive that you have to look at what else you can get for the same money..
I collect old wheels myself and would love to have a set, but I have decided (at least for the time beeing...) that they are not worth it.
That beeing said, if I had the balls to buy a set I don't think I would ever manage to part with them.
I know you have several cool projects that could do with the money, but is it worth selling the Berms to get one of them finished just a bit earlier? You will no doubt regret it if you sell, and perhaps newer again feel you have the spare money to buy another set..
I suppose what it boils down to is that you have to decide yourself. All I can say is that money comes in every month, real BRM's don't!

[Frank LUX]

To BERM or not to BERM....Hmmmm...BERM IT!!!!

Frank

[Lee.C]

you could always sell them and buy a set of wide 5 American Racing mags - IMHO they look better than BRM anyway 

[jick]

if i was me i'd keep the real BRM's for special occasions, use the fakes for general everyday use and offload one (or some) of your other projects..........i'm obviously guessing but i bet that those other cars you have aren't as rare as those wheels.

nice choice to have though dude..... 

[Bill Schwimmer]

Real BRMs....hmmm. I remember when I paid $900.00 for my 1st set in '87 & I brokered a set in '91 for $4000.00  I thought that was quite a bit of money. Now sets regularly trade for $6000 to $8000. I have had my current set for 17 yrs & I feel that they are part of the car ,not to be parted from. Yes, they are not for everybody. There is a risk in using them. Sort of the same risk when you race an irreplaceable vintage car. If you can afford to own them ,you can probably afford the risk. Replica wheels are cool. They probably helped to promote the Look more than anything else.On the other hand ,replicas have never been to a DKP 1 meeting or Bug In 1. I can remember when I was just getting into the history of the Look in the early '80s and seeing a set of BRM's in the flesh was like seeing a unicorn. They were mythical back then, only hoarded by a select few. When I joined the magnesium club in '87 that was one of the highlights for me in the hobby.There are more out of the shadows now than ever, However it is still a very small group. I am a bit dismayed by the current trend to not polish them & let them go black.This will result in pitting that will not be able to be repaired, all of the white fuzz that you see is a pit underneath.
   I think you know my answer to your question. I would keep the replicas to have the car on most of the time, & when you want to go back to cruise OC in 1975, you are a floor jack away.  Later   Bill

[Shubee2 (DSK)]

Being an Old Fart that grew up with Empi Products I Worked For Auto Haus in the Early 70's You Could buy a Brand New BRM,Empi 5 Spoke, or Empi 8 Spokes We Sold Them At Auto Haus for $49.95 Each in the early 80's you could buy a set of BRM's off the Bullitin Board at Auto Haus for about $400.00 a set I Have Owned over 15 Sets Of Orginal BRM's Over The Years I Was In the VW Club DVB in the mid 70's which a few of us guys Quit DVB and started our own Club DSK (DER SELTEN KAFERS) there are still a few of us Around Unlike DVB WE Wanted  Quality Not Quanty We Wanted To Be Like DKP 1  Super Clean Original Cal Look Cars With Big Horse Power And Driven On The Street  I Grew Up With The Original Cal Look Clubs DVB,DKP,DRF,DSK,KOB,DKK,DRA, where we Street Raced After the Car Rallys Behind Pacfic Stereo in Anaheim, And Behind Nabisco Those were the good Old Days Getting Back To The Wheels I Also have a set of each I Recently got back into the Bug Scene about a year ago after being away from it for over 15 years I am Presently Buliding  An old school 67 Sedan with an 84x94 motor I Am Going to use the Flat 4's most of the time since I have seven of those 2 for slicks 4on the car and a spare I will use the Originals  for Shows and The Classic  If you have ever owned a set of real BRM's they are a real pain in the ass to polish but if you dont take care of them they will pit easy  The Set Of Original BRM's I have now I Bought over 20 years ago and Paid $900.00 for 5 wheels caps, and all hardware even though there worth almost nine times what I paid for them I Will Never Sell Them, I also have an NOS set of 15 inch 8 Spokes in the Original Boxes.. 

[Frank LUX]

I also have an NOS set of 15 inch 8 Spokes in the Original Boxes.. 

First of all cool story!!!

About those 8 Spokes, you should get in contact with DKK Rick, I think he is looking for some...

Frank

[Dave Galassi]

Being an Old Fart that grew up with Empi Products I Worked For Auto Haus in the Early 70's You Could buy a Brand New BRM,Empi 5 Spoke, or Empi 8 Spokes We Sold Them At Auto Haus for $49.95 Each in the early 80's you could buy a set of BRM's off the Bullitin Board at Auto Haus for about $400.00 a set I Have Owned over 15 Sets Of Orginal BRM's Over The Years I Was In the VW Club DVB in the mid 70's which a few of us guys Quit DVB and started our own Club DSK (DER SELTEN KAFERS) there are still a few of us Around Unlike DVB WE Wanted  Quality Not Quanty We Wanted To Be Like DKP 1  Super Clean Original Cal Look Cars With Big Horse Power And Driven On The Street  I Grew Up With The Original Cal Look Clubs DVB,DKP,DRF,DSK,KOB,DKK,DRA, where we Street Raced After the Car Rallys Behind Pacfic Stereo in Anaheim, And Behind Nabisco Those were the good Old Days Getting Back To The Wheels I Also have a set of each I Recently got back into the Bug Scene about a year ago after being away from it for over 15 years I am Presently Buliding  An old school 67 Sedan with an 84x94 motor I Am Going to use the Flat 4's most of the time since I have seven of those 2 for slicks 4on the car and a spare I will use the Originals  for Shows and The Classic  If you have ever owned a set of real BRM's they are a real pain in the ass to polish but if you dont take care of them they will pit easy  The Set Of Original BRM's I have now I Bought over 20 years ago and Paid $900.00 for 5 wheels caps, and all hardware even though there worth almost nine times what I paid for them I Will Never Sell Them, I also have an NOS set of 15 inch 8 Spokes in the Original Boxes.. 

This and a lot of other information in Shubees head, needs to be written down and put in the second book.  Not to mention information and stories from Larry Rick, Russ Welch and Steve Walker.  These guys were there and know a LOT of history. Pictures too!  My knowledge of what happened before I got into the scene in the early eighties came from them.   


An interesting side note would be to try and assemble a list of the originals still out there.  Not to steal the thread, though.

[Shubee2 (DSK)]

One THing I have to say about the Flat 4 BRM's THey are a very Good Quality Wheel Flat 4 has them made at the same Foundry that makes wheels For To#¤taThe Flat 4 Wheels have the same Foundry casting mark as any brand new To#¤ta, As Far as the Shine The Clear coat can be stripped off and Professionally Polished to Shine that looks almost chrome ADD a Set of Good Quality BRM Caps Made by Greg Arronson from FAT PERFORMANCE  not the cheap crap and you have your self a Great Looking set of Wheels and you Don't have to Worry about them Breaking or Cracking them you can Race with them or Cruise with them and if you hit a Curb ? or Bang One Up You Can Go Buy another One. My Vote Would Be To Run the Flat 4's put the Originals Away its not like there going Down in Value in 39 Years they went from $49.95 each to $2000.00 each and the wheels that are out there are the same wheels there just being sold over and over again. Before I got out of VW's 15 years ago I was Buliding a 57 Oval old school Cal Look I Had And Original Set Of Magnesium AMERICAN 5 Spoke Wheels On the Car. The Car was Done except for the Interior I Decided to sell it  The Car Sold for $10,000.00 with no interior in it It Went to Japan it was in Volks World Mag when I owned it The Wheels on That Car are now going for $8000.00 a set  I could have kicked myself in the ass for letting them go  but who would have thought the wheels would ever be worth that? When I Bought those Wheels  I Paid $550.00 for 5 Wheels With all the Hardware just to show you the same wheels keep going around Those wheels were on a 70's Cal Look  they came off a 59 VERT that was in the VW Club KOB  (Keep On Buggin) from Long Beach.  I Also Had A Cherry Set Of Empi 5 Spokes which were sold a few times now, they were even on Bill Schwimmier's Ragtop for a while From What I Understand one of his friends has them now..  Bill Can Tell You How Cherry They Were!!!!

[Jon]

..........i'm obviously guessing but i bet that those other cars you have aren't as rare as those wheels.

That's whats makes this this so hard... they are! 

[SOB/RFH]

Go with the BRM:s....you only live once and you will regret it if you did not try it!!!! Besides polishing the wheels will get you to the point where you just get rid of them for a more easier version so you still have some fingertip left when you get older

[LuftsickTero]

I am fortunate enough to own a set of brand new, first run Flat-4 BRM wheels... AND a perfect, super nice set of the real deal Speedwell magnesiums.

IMO; repro Berms are "played out" and same thing will happen gradually to every wheel Flat4 reproes.

If I was in your shoes I would use the original Berms on special occasions then get something easier and original to run everyday which would have same bolt pattern and offset, like Sprint Stars.

[H67bug]

sell them to me and get your cars on the road. 

[Trond Dahl]

Since you already have them, I would keep them and push the finish line a bit ahead so the money will come elsewhere.
It will take a bit longer to get there, but when that day comes I'm pretty sure you will be glad you did.
If this was a financial show stopper for the project I would sell them though... What good do they do if the car you are gonna use them on will never leave your garage?

[SilverPig]

Keep them...and sell the Flat4's...but why only use them for special occations? I would use 'em all the time...and just give them a good polish for special occations...like 17th of May, or Mr. Weber's birthday or similar holidays.

[Ivan]

Before I got out of VW's 15 years ago I was Buliding a 57 Oval old school Cal Look I Had And Original Set Of Magnesium AMERICAN 5 Spoke Wheels On the Car. The Car was Done except for the Interior I Decided to sell it, the Car Sold for $10,000.00 with no interior in it It Went to Japan it was in Volks World Mag when I owned it The Wheels on That Car are now going for $8000.00 a set  I could have kicked myself in the ass for letting them go  but who would have thought the wheels would ever be worth that?

Gary - I loved your Oval - when Hector and I sorted out the photographs of his car and your car together it made an awesome feature, the only things which let things down a bit were the quality of the photographs - we've stepped things up a lot since your car was in the magazine...But that was way back in March 1992!
And the other thing was that your car deserved to have a feature all of its own. I can remember thinking how much I would have loved to own your Oval - just as it was - the wheels were awesome, it had a 'vert decklid , heart tail lgihts and look superb.

As for the BRM question...

I'm biased, I did everything in my power to get myself an OG set - It was something I a bit too fanatical about, if I'm honest. Back then there was no internet, no samba.com and it was a very different world. There was only one set in the UK at the time. And the ONLY other person I know of in Europe that had any was Paul Rui in Oslo - who had found two in Norway.
I got hold of two in the UK, then had to sell my one owner, low mile, '68 Fastback to pay for the other two which came from So Cal. One had a slight kurb mark, so even then the job wasn't done. I bought another set of four so I ended up with four good wheels on the car and one under the hood as a spare. I've had BRMs since 1990, and they've been on my '67 since 1991. Except for a few little vacations... when I had original DDS wheels on the car for the '94 VolksWorld Show, and a set of EMPI Sprints for a few months... They've been the only wheels on it. In fact for the last 8 years they've been the only VW wheels I own, so they have been on the car full-time.
So, in my opinion, for what it's worth, getting original BRMs was the hard bit, the really hard bit!  Selling them would be the easy bit.
But hang on a minute, I'd have no wheels at all so I'd have a  Bug I couldn't drive!
That's not the reason I'd NEVER sell my BRMs though.
The reason I'd never sell them is exactly the same reason I'd never sell my '67 - because without them in my life there would be a void which I wouldn't be happy about.
If you think of your BRMs as nothing more than a commodity - then if I was you I'd sell them.
Let me know if you decide that's what you want to do - I've got room at my house for another set - just don't expect me to ever sell them back to you.

[Shubee2 (DSK)]

Well Ivan the Last SET of BRM's I Sold Was to Hector and at that time I sold Them For $1500.00 a set that was the Going Price then but If I Had Everything  Now That I Had Back Then I Would be living in Bel Air Driving A Bently and Be Retired But Since I Dont Have Everything I Had Then I Am just like everyone else Paying the Big Bucks For The Things They Want because it comes Down to Supply And Demand back in the Mid 70's I was Buying 4 1/2,5/1/2and deep 6's POrsche Alloys for $350.00 a Set Look at the Prices now days My Americam 5 Spokes I Paid $550.00 for a set of 5 now a set of 4 is going for $8000.00  What Has Happened To Prices With These Cars You Are almost better buying one done then redo it at least you get all the parts cheaper. The Same Thing has happened with other car parts too I Am Buliding A 67 Chevy II which I Have Been Working On Since 1995 I Bought two NOS fenders for it I paid $275.00 Each Now Beat Up Used fenders are going for $450.00 each  If you Want To See My 67 Project Nova heres my webpage http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/forest/3713  there is about 20 pages of pictures of the car in progress its a 327 350H.P. 4 Speed With Original 66/67 American Racing Torq Thrust "D" Wheels which are now going for $2500.00 a set  these have Different Spokes then the wheels Sold Today  But Just Like The RARE VW PARTS I Will Hang On To Everything I Have Left Because Rare Parts are Better then a Bank Account they Continue to go up and Value.

[Zach Gomulka]

It's a sad fact that even good used, STOCK VW parts pricing is getting steep. I'm sure my dad got me into Bugs because they were ultra-cheap to fix up, and modify. back in the mid-80's you'd meet someone else that had gotten into VW's and one of you were bound to say..."Yeah, yeah, AND they're cheap to fix up, the parts are everywhere, owning a VW as a hobby is great!"
sorry to get off topic.

People still say that to me. You can do it fairly cheap if you dont desire the best of everything, but Im sure that doesnt apply to anyone here.

[Sarge]

Damned if you do, damned if you don't....  I've been around more then my fair share of real BRM's over the years and never owned any.  I balked at the chance to own Arnie Mohlman's set several years ago (I could have traded my Flat-4's staight across for REAL BRM's) but chose not to.  The reason for me is I hate the maintenance the real ones require (especialy in cold, damp weather).  The other is the thought of breakage.  I was in Greg Aronson's garage many years ago after a bad night at OCIR...blown spider gears on his white car.  We're pulling the engine and I hear him say "HOLY SHIT...CHECK THIS OUT"...the left rear BRM was cracked a third of the way around the inner bead!  I'm a big traditionalist, but for me, the best place for real BRM's is on someone else's car...not mine; sorry, just my opinion.  By the way, I spoke with Arnie a few months ago on the phone and he's since come to his senses about doing any "trading"...go figure!

[DeanoVW]

I had eight genuine BRMs a few years ago. I sold off three and kept five on my '67 beetle. I then made the decision to sell the five when I lost my job and was unable to pay the bills!
Thats life, but I would probably buy more if I won the lottery. 

[Shubee2 (DSK)]

not to get off the subject but I Bought two EMPI GT Steering wheel Brand new in the box From DEE BERG for $15.00 each When EMPI went out of Business in the Late 70's They auctioned off Pallets of Stuff that were Left Over Gene and Dee Berg Bought Three Pallets of Steering Wheels Sight unseen it was an auction so you just placed a bid They Won The Steering Wheels When they got them Back to the Shop they started going threw what they had bought there were Brand New EMPI GT Wheels Complete, there were the Wheels With the Big Padded Horn Button And Then they Discovered That about 50% of the Wheels They Bought Were New Stock VW Take Off Steering Wheels Still Not A Bad Deal Gene and Dee Sold Off The Stock Take Off Wheels To Bugs For You  And slowly sold off the Empi Wheels I Bought Two Of The EMPI GT Wheels in the Box for $30.00 plus Tax Look Where those Wheel's are at Now??  Back In The 70's Empi Stuff was the Hot Ticket  but Did Not Cost an Arm an Leg To Get It.. there a Pair Of Empi Plate Frames on Samba for $1600.00  I Bought Two Pair from ECONO MOTORS in the Late 70's for $2.95 a Pair  I Want to Know How can People justify spending $$$$  then to top it off MR Bug INC. took over the EMPI Name and Trademark after it was Dorment for 17 Years They Put the EMPI name on all the made in China Crap and half the Guys out there try to sell that Crap as Original EMPI and More Recently MR Bug INC. took over the Race Trim,and Auto Haus Trade mark More China Crap.. thats my 2 cents  lol

[javabug]

the left rear BRM was cracked a third of the way around the inner bead!

I'm surprised we don't hear more of this story about the originals.  A local neighbor here who has been "into" VWs since the late 60s had a buddy that owned a set.  He needed 2 of them replaced because one broke going around a bend in the road, on the inside like above.  The other one cracked as well, but I'm not sure of the details.  Needless to say, the owner got tired of breaking wheels and sold them, for about $150.

My neighbor, of course had the chance to buy them, but didn't.  He helped deliver them to the new owner, though.   

[Russell]

Well heres my view.

1) If you can, keep them at all costs

However you have valid reasons and i know what too many projects are like......

2) if not, sell them to me ?

Ive been looking for a set for ages.........

Russell (really you should keep them)

[Frank LUX]

not to get off the subject but I Bought two EMPI GT Steering wheel Brand new in the box From DEE BERG for $15.00 each When EMPI went out of Business in the Late 70's They auctioned off Pallets of Stuff that were Left Over Gene and Dee Berg Bought Three Pallets of Steering Wheels Sight unseen it was an auction so you just placed a bid They Won The Steering Wheels When they got them Back to the Shop they started going threw what they had bought there were Brand New EMPI GT Wheels Complete, there were the Wheels With the Big Padded Horn Button And Then they Discovered That about 50% of the Wheels They Bought Were New Stock VW Take Off Steering Wheels Still Not A Bad Deal Gene and Dee Sold Off The Stock Take Off Wheels To Bugs For You  And slowly sold off the Empi Wheels I Bought Two Of The EMPI GT Wheels in the Box for $30.00 plus Tax Look Where those Wheel's are at Now??  Back In The 70's Empi Stuff was the Hot Ticket  but Did Not Cost an Arm an Leg To Get It.. there a Pair Of Empi Plate Frames on Samba for $1600.00  I Bought Two Pair from ECONO MOTORS in the Late 70's for $2.95 a Pair  I Want to Know How can People justify spending $$$$  then to top it off MR Bug INC. took over the EMPI Name and Trademark after it was Dorment for 17 Years They Put the EMPI name on all the made in China Crap and half the Guys out there try to sell that Crap as Original EMPI and More Recently MR Bug INC. took over the Race Trim,and Auto Haus Trade mark More China Crap.. thats my 2 cents  lol

One of those NOS Black Empi steering Whells ended up with me in Luxembourg, was a very good Deal from Dee Berg...

I sold the NOS Steering Wheel now to a fellow DAS Club Member...

Frank